JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization? (page 4)

Mickey mouse

I think my answer would be "I would like to think so, although if I'm honest with myself their track record suggests otherwise".

OUTLAW

"Do you accept the WBT$ F oolish D umb S tupid Organization,as God`s Organization?"..

When you put it like that..No..

.................... ...OUTLAW

mamalove

Really interesting experience, and betsy, some great thoughts there.

MrMonroe

The original posting has corrupted for users on IE. Here 'tis again:

My wife and I had stopped going to meetings in April; in December of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the Witness couple who had "brought me into the truth". We had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until Sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about WHY we had left. Had we been stumbled? It's not about the people, you know! Well, we said, that's our private decision. We left, we're not going back, but we'd rather not discuss our reasons.

It was a session I described in my diary as the Breakfast Grill. They told me there was a Watchtower that very day was addressed at our very situation, about how Jesus cares for his lost sheep, and they assured me that when we returned to Melbourne, we would surely have contact from our old congregation. Stirred up by the timely article, those loving, concerned brothers would definitiely inquire after our spiritual wellbeing. If he was a gambling man, he'd put money on it. Rubbish, I told them. They'll attend the Watchtower study, answer the questions and give us no thought at all. It's a Watchtower study, just words on a page. That's the way it is. I didn't want them to visit in any case: we'd made a definite decision to leave, based on very firm grounds.

And so on they went, hour after hour, tears in their eyes as they grieved for our loss. OUR loss! But then there was curious question.

He looked my wife in the eye and asked her,

"Do you believe Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave as his organizaiton on earth?"

My wife paused. How the hell do you answer that question? The answer, of course, was , No, absolutely not. I jumped in and deflected and quickly the question was forgotten.

But I've never forgotten that question. Why did he ask it? It's a loaded question, a bit like a Witness being asked by a householder, "Do you accept the divinity of Christ, yes or no?" Well, there's a trap, because it depends on your definition.

His question assumes several things:

1. God has an organization (which is an interpretation peculiar to the Witnesses).

2. If he does have one, it is the Watch Tower Society. (Please God, no!)

3. The faithful and discreet slave is more than just a figure in a parable: it is a "class" of Christians as Russell decided. (Again, among all religions, only the Witnesses have decided that parabolic figure represents a group of Christians who would be represented in the last days).

4. If the Watch Tower Society is indeed God's organization, the faithful and discreet slave "class" actually plays a role. (There is no evidence that those 11,200 self-professed anointed scattered throughout the globe play any role in the formation of doctrine or direction of the beliefs or activities of Witnesses. As Ray Franz pointed out, they mean nothing, zilch, to the Governing Body).

So why did he ask it? Did someone suggest it to him? Reading threads on this forum, and listening to the recordings at the Death or Obedience blog, it seems this is a question commonly asked at judicial committees. I searched in the "Shepherd the Flock of God" book for a suggestion that elders ask the question, and couldn't find it. Is there some unwritten convention that elders ask that question of those they suspect are apostates, searching for the evidence that would allow them to disfellowship them? Because answering in the negative is an immediate confession that one is no longer a believer, no longer under the spell of the Watch Tower Society.

Have you ever been asked that question? Do elders share it among themselves as the $64,000 question? Why did he ask it?

mamalove

Your post makes much more sense now that we can see it all lol!

I admit, staying with JWs for the weekend must have been a little weird.

moshe

call up Bethel and ask to speak to one of the F&DS- they will probably deflect your call- my crystal ball imagines the call will go like this when you ask for one of the F&DS--

Hello, Bethel--

Hi, this is Bro Kumquat, I want to speak to one of the F&DS.

Well, I don't have a number for that.

Are you telling me there are no F&DS?

No brother Kumquat, of course there are F&DS.

So, can you connect me to one of them?

No, but why should, I?

My Bible study bet me that the F&DS don't exist.

Oh

Can you give me the name of just one of the F&DS?

No

Is it because you can't give it out or you don't know anybody that is one of the F&DS?

Uh, brother Kumquat, I'm connecting you with the service desk- they want to know what KH you go to.

peacefulpete

Others have said it already, the key doctrine of the JWs is the FDS. The rest is backgound noise that can change with the seasons.

It's similar to talking to nonJWs who immediately retreat to "But you do believe in God don't you?" or "At least you believe in God, right?" For them the rest is detail that is free to be wrangled, as long as you believe in God then you are a suitable person to talk with.

wobble

Thanks for reposting the full thing Mr Monroe,

As the "question" is used all around the world it seems, I would guess it was initiated at one of the closed Elder Schools, so you will not find it in print, just jotted down in the margin of an old "Flock" book I guess, and new Elders are schooled in the black art of using it by the old hands.

I love Bestys methods of handling it, it may not totally prevent them from using what you say against you, but at least it makes them confront the stupidity of the situation and question their own "loyalty" perhaps, if they have an honest heart.

MrMonroe

@ Mamalove: Yes, staying with our old friends was quite stressful. "Strained" is probably the best word to describe the weekend. We'd known this couple since the mid-80s and it is clear now the friendship is on very shaky grounds. The wife has twice rung shortly before Memorial night to "encourage" us to attend (on one occasion losing her temper and snapping that we were hypocrites for not attending, because we know it's the truth). They used a lot of emotion, pleading, at one point, "What about the girls?" Luvvy, it was as much for the sake of our girls that we have abandoned this crackpot religion!

@ Wobble: Maybe you're right about it being a question that's never written in the official textbook. I tell you, knowing this guy, who was never a deep student, that question was not asked of his own initiative. It just wasn't him. It was more like a question an overbearing prosecution lawyer would ask a defendant in a trial, and like I say, he actually forgot about it pretty quickly. Somone fed it to him.

The answers many of you are so good. Inevitably, of course, asking them how they know God has an organization, and how they know the "faithful and discreet slave" is the cornerstone of that organization won't produce any sensible answer ("It is, because it is!") and will ultimately only give them the answer they want: you're not under the WTS spell any more. You didn't say, in a loud, clear voice, "Yes!"

Ray Franz discussed the idea so well in chapter 13 of In Search of Christian Freedom: one of the "proof" arguments the WTS uses for the existence of a "God's organization" is that Satan has an organization, so therefore God must have one. Franz's response to that line of thinking: "It says in so many words that what Satan does is a guide for us to know what God does ... in reality, the scriptures show that Satan most often uses methods, not typical of, but directly opposite to God's." (p.459).

He also turns on its head the old WT claim that if God was part of a trinity that he would have plainly stated this fact in the Bible. Franz reasoned: If it was so critical that people appreciate God had an organization on earth to which people had to be a member in order to survive Armageddon, wouldn't he have plainly stated it? (p. 453).

clearpoison

Thank's for reposting.

Well, this is loaded question, but it could mean different things to one asking and to one answering. In the very same way as your example about householder.

Just for speculation cause, the answer can be given based on your horizon and the answer will be interpreted by the one hearing it, based on their horizon. If we detach the parable of the slave from what is present today as WT, GB and associated organisations, the answer for non-WT believer could be yes. Maybe there is that kind of organisation or that kind of slave-servant somewhere. I really do not need to have identified or seen that slave in order to be able to believe that such exist. Do this type of reasoning ring any bells?

I really do not need to care how the other party is understanding my answer if it really do not matter for me. If there is no message I absolutelly want to get through. In the very same way as if my wife would be asking if the dress looks nice on her. I could think it's pure horror, but if it really do not matter for me, but matters for her, I would say yes, just to please her.

CP

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

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