Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book

by t33ap80c 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • t33ap80c
    t33ap80c

    TD,

    You said, "My experience is that JW's will pounce on anything they believe is less than accurate as an excuse to dismiss everything else you say."

    That's my experiece too.

    But is it less than accurate to conclude that the footnote on page 133 of the Proclaimers book is acknowledging that the date of 1874 was changed to 1914 in 1943?

    What about my related footnote where I said, "NO TE: There is some evidence that Rutherford first mentioned 1914 as the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming in the 1930s." From what you pointed out, that statement is accurate.

    How about when I said, " But the Proclaimers book doesn’t mention any date prior to 1943." That is accurate.

    A nd finally I concluded: " Either way it wouldn’t make any difference (if the date was changed in the 1930s or 1943) because the change of date was made long after Jesus’ (food-at-the-proper-time) examination was over." That is accurate.

    Will such an explanation above make any difference to a Witness who is not yet ready to face the truth about the Watchtower Society? My experience is that it will not make any difference even if they cannot see anything that is not accurate.

    Don

  • Gorbatchov
    Gorbatchov

    The Proclaimers book is not so current anymore, since the introduction of the new DVD.

    When the DVD was presented at the convention last summer, the Bethel speaker told the audience "The need for this DVD was great, because Jehovah's Witnesses are not readers of thick (big volume) books."

    With these remarkable words he put the Proclaimers book to the sidelines of JW-history.

    I heard it with my own ears at the Utrecht convention in The Netherlands.

  • TD
    TD

    Don,

    But is it less than accurate to conclude that the footnote on page 133 of the Proclaimers book is acknowledging that the date of 1874 was changed to 1914 in 1943?

    Without any tangible evidence from the period literature showing that the timing of the Parousia was changed in 1943, I think we're discussing the presence (Or absence) of a mistaken claim in the Proclaimers book as opposed to an acknowledgment.

    And since no such claim is explicitly stated, we would have to look for an implicit claim, perhaps through a cause and effect relationship. In 1943, would the change described below have been relavant to the timing of the Parousia?

    From Mr. Barbour, editor of that publication, Russell also came to be persuaded that Christ’s invisible presence had begun in 1874*

    This was influenced by the belief that the seventh millennium of human history had begun in 1873 and that a period of divine disfavor (of equal length to a former period considered to be one of favor) upon natural Israel would end in 1878. The chronology was flawed because of relying on an inaccurate rendering of Acts 13:20 in the King James Version,belief that there was a transcription error at 1 Kings 6:1, and failure to take into account Biblical synchronisms in the dating of reigns of the kings of Judah and of Israel. A clearer understanding of Biblical chronology was published in 1943, in the book The Truth Shall Make You Free, and it was then refined the following year in the book "The Kingdom Is at Hand," as well as in later publications.

    By 1943, the timing of the Parousia was no longer resting upon the chronology that in 1876, convinced Russell of the 1874 date. It was resting upon the calculation for the expiration of the Gentile Times, and therefore would have been unaffected by the change described above. It was no longer relevant to the timing of the Parousia.

    Did the writer or writers of Proclaimers mistakenly believe that reworking the start of the 7th millennium would have affected the timing of the Parousia? Were they parroting the statement from God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years? I understand how the inference could be made, but Proclaimers does not actually repeat the offending statement. So I don't know how we could positively attribute that thought to them as tempting as it may be.

    My comments on this thread have been strictly in relation to the original post. Until today I had not read your book and did not understand your further comments:

    What about my related footnote where I said, "There is some evidence that Rutherford first mentioned 1914 as the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming in the 1930s." From what you pointed out, that statement is accurate.

    Is there any other evidence? Besides finding the point were they quit saying the Parousia started in 1874 and began saying it started in 1914, I don't know what other evidence there would be (?)

    And finally I concluded: Either way it wouldn’t make any difference (if the date was changed in the 1930s or 1943) because the change of date was made long after Jesus’ (food-at-the-proper-time) examination was over." That is accurate.

    Exactly --Which is why I said "A ten year difference doesn't detract in the least from the point you've made."

    Will such an explanation above make any difference to a Witness who is not yet ready to face the truth about the Watchtower Society? My experience is that it will not make any difference even if they cannot see anything that is not accurate

    That I don't honestly know. I do know that a JW will flail around like a drowning person, looking for any excuse to dismiss an argument as "Apostate lies."

  • t33ap80c
    t33ap80c

    gorbatchov,

    Do you (or anyone else) know what, if anything, the new DVD says about Matthew 24:45-47?

    Don

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Don,

    The problem for me (and many others) with the Proclaimer's book is not for what it left out of JW history, per se. It is infinitely more honest than the Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Circus book, its predecessor.

    There is much embarrassing information for the WTS society in the Proclaimers book. I'm convinced they put it in there in response to critics who have repeatedly reported how much they have lied or obfuscated about themselves in the past.

    But as you've pointed out, the embarrassing gems are planted in paragraphs that are themed around a completely different topic. This makes them difficult to find for even serious researchers, much less casual research, and much, much less for lazy-assed dubs who want all their questions spoon-fed to them and their bibs wiped. This way, when they are questioned in the past about something idiotic they taught about say, the Kings of the North and South in Daniel, they can say: "Oh, we acknowledged that. Just turn to the chapter on our expansion in Sri Lanka, under the sub-heading "New Branch Office Glorifies Jehovah" and you can see where we admitted in the middle of the third sentence of the the fifth paragraph that we once taught that old light King of the North doctrine ."

    That's my problem with the book.

    Farkel

  • MrMonroe
    MrMonroe

    Rutherford had confirmed the 1874 date in 1929 in his "Prophecy" book, page 65. See here.

    Robert Crompton's "Counting the Days to Armageddon," (1996, pg. 133) spends most of a page discussing how Fred Franz's "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years" made a grand announcement of the "new light", evidently not aware that the change had been introduced some years before 1943. Interestingly, Crompton, who does a detailed study of the rationale behind all the WTS chronology, takes a dim view of the revision by both Rutherford and Franz, who seemed not to understand how Russell's system had worked in the first place.

    Crompton page 133

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    When the DVD was presented at the convention last summer, the Bethel speaker told the audience "The need for this DVD was great, because Jehovah's Witnesses are not readers of thick (big volume) books."

    Your right about that Gorbatchov,

    last fall when I showed the two sisters, the grey box on Beth- Sarim they seemed surprised

    tried to cover it with new light, but I asked them wasn't that solid proof of a prophecy that

    failed ? and they danced around the question, one sister said they didn't build it, I said

    maybe they use the same folks who build the kindom Halls. ( Crickets Chirping)

  • t33ap80c
    t33ap80c

    Is the "new DVD" referring to the "Faith In Action: Out of Darkness" DVD?

    Don

  • t33ap80c
    t33ap80c

    Does the new DVD change anything about the Society's interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47? Does it mention anything about the change of date of Jesus' parousia from 1874 to 1914?

    Don

  • TD
    TD

    Don,

    Does the new DVD change anything about the Society's interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47?

    I don't believe so. I didn't notice any reference to the teaching at all.

    Does it mention anything about the change of date of Jesus' parousia from 1874 to 1914?

    Agonus' YouTube link above is the only time it touches on the subject. It looked to me like they're trying real hard to give the impression that the change happened much, much earlier than it actually did.

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