Cedars
Awake! July 2009 No one should be made to choose between their beliefs and family
by Awen 73 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Sauerkraut
Thanks for posting this, downloaded the file, I'll keep it for later. More ammunition for the next discussion.
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ziddina
Oh, cool!
Thanks to whomever bumped this wonderful thread!!
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00DAD
Cedars, thanks for pointing yet another set of contradictions in the inspired pages of the WT.
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King Solomon
It's no contradiction- the truth of what those statements are actually saying is far uglier than an inconsistency or mere contradiction. Instead, those quotes are an absolutely-accurate depiction of the Orwellian world of JWs.
As has been explained in many other threads, the first statement focuses on the decision made by the individual who is unhappy being a member of the JWs, who may feel forced to go along with the program out of familial pressure (fear of being shunned). It's saying that other JWs shouldn't force them to remain a member against their will by actively threatening to shun them if they decide to leave. It's NOT saying that their family members WON'T shun them: we all know they ARE directed to do so from the podium, since the statement is NOT an announcement that the shunning practice is discontinued. Far from it!
The 2013 statement is focusing on the goal that shunning is expected to achieve, ie it explains WHY they shun.
As you see, the truth of what's stated is far uglier and devastating than seeming contradiction: the WT is using legalese (AKA speaking with a forked tongue) to try and lessen the impact of a cruel and emotionally-taxing shunning policy, telling it's members that shunning is actually a show of LOVE for the "beloved" shunned family member, since it's NOT forcing someone to stay against their will, but setting them free.
That's a classic example of JW Orwellian logic, where 'war' is peace, and ignoring is a sign of love.
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00DAD
King Solomon, if you read the Awake article of July 2009 you'll find that the WT was applying that quote to all other religions except themselves. In typical WT doublespeak, they tacitly exempted themselves from their own admonition.
A I recall, the picture Cedars posted above the quote is from a WT Study article. I'm guessing he was using literary license putting the two together for dramatic effect.
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King Solomon
00Dad said:
King Solomon, if you read the Awake article of July 2009 you'll find that the WT was applying that quote to all other religions except themselves.
Nope. They never exempted themselves. Read it again.
I think it's foolish to think the WTBTS writers who wrote that article didn't carefully consider the ramifications of each and every word they wrote, as if it wouldn't be read by active JWs who'd note the "contradiction" (that's YOUR word, not mine), if it WERE a contradiction.
You are under-estimating their intellect and extremely careful choice of words (AKA semantics), as while you MAY want to label them as dumb or whatever, the last adjective that comes to mind would be such: they're very clever.
Fact is, I've had the semantics of that same Awake article explained to me BY a JW elder (my brother) a few years ago, as HE saw the significance of what ISN'T stated. HE explained the subtle semantics to ME, which is not a good thing when discussing the shunning topic with JWs: you want to know their theology, THEIR defense, so you don't look like the fool; then YOU can approach the topic from a valid angle that's not so easily dismantled and dismissed.
After all, you DO want to go in with an argument that contains a valid persuasive logical point, right? You're not simply looking to be witnessed to, to have JW eschatology explained to YOU, are you?
(BTW, I saw that Awake article as targeted to non-believing spouses (eg jgnat) to convert them into "The Truth". Not that it doesn't work for others considering changing their religion, but spouses seemed to be the primary audience).
So while it definitely IS duplicitious and obsfucation of their REAL policy, it's not hypocrisy or contradictory, per se (defined as ACTING in a manner inconsistent with what you state).
It actually IS a GREAT example of the use of 'weasel words' in the Orwellian World of JWs, attempting to mitigate the damage caused by their shunning policy: point out the unstated words missing from the first article, and the attempt to spin shunning as a display of love into the very unloving practice in the 2nd.
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00DAD
KS, They never exempted themselves. Read it again.
I no longer have the article. I threw it away after reading it the first time. Would you mind scanning it and supplying me a fresh copy or providing a link to a PDF.
In the meantime, I gotta' say, I think you're over thinking this.
JWs clearly think that the quote from the July 2009 Awake does not apply to them.
Peace out!
00DAD
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cedars
The Bible’s Viewpoint
Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?
When Avtar began studying the Bible, her Sikh family was upset. “In my homeland,” she says, “changing your religion cuts you off from the community. Even our names have religious meaning. To change your religion is viewed as rejecting your identity and disrespecting your family.”
AVTAR eventually became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Was she wrong to change her religion? Perhaps you identify with her family. You may feel that your religion is inextricably linked with family history and culture and should not be changed.
Honoring one’s family is important. The Bible says: “Listen to your father who caused your birth.” (Proverbs 23:22) But it is more important to seek to know the truth about our Creator and his purposes. (Isaiah 55:6) Is such a search possible? If so, how important is this search to you?
Searching for Religious Truth
The world’s religions teach conflicting ideas. Logically, those teachings cannot all be true. As a result, there must be many people who, as the Bible says, “have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge.” (Romans 10:2) Yet, as recorded at 1 Timothy 2:4, the apostle Paul says that it is God’s will that “all sorts of men . . . come to an accurate knowledge of truth.” How can such accurate knowledge be found?
Consider reasons for examining the Bible. Paul, who was an inspired Bible writer, stated: “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching.” (2 Timothy 3:16) As part of your search for truth, examine the evidence that the Bible’s claim is true. Investigate for yourself its unparalleled wisdom, historical accuracy, and fulfilled prophecy.
Instead of presenting all religions as equal approaches to God, the Bible tells its readers not to believe everything they hear but to “test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” (1 John 4:1) For example, any teaching that truly originates with God must be in harmony with his personality, including his dominant quality of love.—1 John 4:8.
The Bible assures us that God wants us to “really find him.” (Acts 17:26, 27) Since our Creator wants us to search for truth, it cannot be wrong to act on the evidence that we find—even if this means changing our religion. But what about the problems that this may bring?
Balancing Family Loyalty
When people change their beliefs, they may decide that they will no longer share in certain religious rituals or holidays. Understandably, this can result in strong feelings within the family. Jesus acknowledged this. He told his followers: “I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law.” (Matthew 10:35) Did Jesus mean that Bible teachings were designed to be an unavoidable cause of contention? No. He simply foresaw what could happen when family members react negatively to one who takes a firm stand for beliefs different from theirs.
Should family conflict be avoided at all costs? The Bible teaches that children should be obedient to parents and that wives should be in subjection to their husbands. (Ephesians 5:22; 6:1) However, it instructs those who love God to “obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:29) Thus, at times, loyalty to God may result in your making a decision that is unpopular with some family members.
Although the Bible makes a clear distinction between true and false teachings, God allows each person the freedom to choose how he or she will respond. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family. Does study of the Bible lead to family breakup? No. In fact, the Bible encourages a husband and wife who practice different religions to remain together as a family.—1 Corinthians 7:12, 13.
Overcoming Fears
You may fear how the community will react if you study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Mariamma says: “My family was worried that I would not be able to find a suitable husband who could provide for me. So they opposed my Bible study.” Mariamma put her trust in Jehovah God and continued studying. (Psalm 37:3, 4) You can do the same. Rather than fear the results, consider the benefits. The Bible’s message changes lives and personalities for the better. People learn to show unselfish love for their family. Bad habits, such as verbal and physical violence and abuse of alcohol and drugs, can be overcome. (2 Corinthians 7:1) The Bible promotes such wholesome traits as loyalty, honesty, and industriousness. (Proverbs 31:10-31; Ephesians 4:24, 28) Why not study the Bible and see the benefits of applying its teachings in your life?
HAVE YOU WONDERED?
? Why examine your religious beliefs?—Proverbs 23:23; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4.
? How can you identify true teachings?—2 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:1.
? Should family opposition prevent you from studying the Bible?—Acts 5:29.
[Blurb on page 29]
The Bible’s message changes lives and personalities for the better
[Picture on page 29]
Mariamma and her husbandCedars
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King Solomon
00Dad said:
I no longer have the article. I threw it away after reading it the first time. Would you mind scanning it and supplying me a fresh copy or providing a link to a PDF.
The entire library is available on-line, but here's a direct link to the article.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102009251
Note the section is titled, "Balancing Family Loyalty" (I hate to conduct a study session, esp when I don't believe it (!), but will, since confusion reigns rampant here and you need to understand THEIR position before you try to dismantle their argument, in order to avoid creating a "Straw Man" of JW beliefs).
Balancing Family Loyalty
When people change their beliefs, they may decide that they will no longer share in certain religious rituals or holidays. Understandably, this can result in strong feelings within the family. Jesus acknowledged this. He told his followers: “I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law.” (Matthew 10:35) Did Jesus mean that Bible teachings were designed to be an unavoidable cause of contention? No. He simply foresaw what could happen when family members react negatively to one who takes a firm stand for beliefs different from theirs.
Comment: the article is setting the stage for conflict occurring within the family as a possibility of one's JW faith, even predicted by Jesus.
Should family conflict be avoided at all costs? The Bible teaches that children should be obedient to parents and that wives should be in subjection to their husbands. (Ephesians 5:22; 6:1) However, it instructs those who love God to “obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:29) Thus, at times, loyalty to God may result in your making a decision that is unpopular with some family members.
Comment: they're saying that God trumps family concerns, which is the same point made in Jan 2013 article (quoted above).
Although the Bible makes a clear distinction between true and false teachings, God allows each person the freedom to choose how he or she will respond. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.
Comment: note the first sentence I highlighted, saying God doesn't FORCE humans to worship and obey him, saying that God gave man the "freedom to choose."
(note they DIDN'T say "free will." It's actually refreshing that they DIDN'T use that term, since if you've paid ANY attention to the posts I've written on the topic of "free will", I've pointed out that God DIDN'T create man with "free will", where we DO have "freedom of choice". The difference being, "free will" implies FREEDOM to choose between alternatives, both FREE of any consequences; "freedom to choose" is simply saying that we can pick our poison, sleep in the bed we made, dig our own graves, etc.
Note that they are using the SAME logical approach with a family member's being "free to choose" rejecting God by heading for the door, but that does NOT mean they are free of avoiding the consequences of that choice, i.e. they still have to pay for the consequences of that choice (which includes shunning).
So in essence, JWs apply the same extortion threat issued by God ("do what I say or die") to them, to their own family members ("do what we say or be shunned").
THAT'S the message in the Awake and WT, and it's not contradictory or hypocritical: in fact, it's the opposite, being BRUTALLY consistent.