Proving Thor Exist: Reason why the proofs of God fail.

by bohm 52 Replies latest jw friends

  • bohm
    bohm

    Had there been theistic/atheistic debates 1300 years ago, my relatives might have heard this definite argument for the Thundergod Thor:

    • Without Thor there can be no lightning.
    • Lightning exist.
    • Therefore Thor exist. QED.

    The atheist in that time would properly have gone after #1. I imagine the theist would have said:

    "When Thor gets mad, he ride his car across the sky, swing his hammer mjoldner, and lightning fires out from it. You can see a mini-example of this down at the blacksmith. Therefore there is lightning. Now, my learned collegue, what is your explanation for lightning?"

    It would have been a slam-dunk victory: The theist just offered an explanation, the atheist could only make extremely weak arguments that could quickly be taken apart basically by rediculing them. instant win: Thor exist.

    The same argument has been repeated again and again through history with different Gods substituted for "Thor" and different things substituted for "lightning", eg.: floods, the earth, the color of the sky, the rainbow, human, the sea, the neighboring tribe, vulcanic eruptions, famines, death, life, etc. etc.. Today the argument still make its rounds, in particular with the following words:

    • Big Bang
    • Absolute Morals
    • The Fine-tuning of the constants in the universe
    • Early life on earth
    • Logical truths

    And it is extremely effective in a debate.

    But i think it should be cause of concern the argument would have slam-dunk proven Thor in year 700AC. Here is why: Rearranging the argument it go like this:

    • You cant explain lightning
    • Thor can explain lightning
    • Lightning exist
    • Therefore Thor exist. QED.

    formulated in this way it become obvious why the argument fail: the theist didnt really explain lightning. Stated more precisely, his explanation failed in any way an explanation could:

    • He dont explain when we can expect lightning to happend (Thor is mad when he is mad)
    • He dont explain any properties of lightning (Mjoldner make lightning like it make lightning)
    • He dont predict anything about lightning (Lightning is what happends. it is what it is)
    • He dont say anything that can be of any use to us (like how to avoid lightning)
    • He introduce several, abstract, entities which go against our daily experience like:
      • Magic hammer
      • Flying car dragged by magic animals
      • God with anger management problem

    At the end of the day, he only say: "Thor didit like he doesit because he wantit". But because he say it like a small story with magic "just-so" elements, it seem like he actually offered an explanation -- hence it seem like its a good explanation, while in reality, its a very implausible way of saying: "I dont know".

    But it gets even worse. When science begin to nipple apart the Thor-hypothesis, the Thor-appologist begin to incorporate things into his story, or just explain things away. For example:

    • electricity is just the mean Thor use.
    • well, Thor could be many places at once. His rage is not confirmed to one location
    • well, who say a God have a radar signature? he may be invisible!

    Returning to the things people use in these type of arguments:

    • Big Bang
    • Absolute Morals
    • The Fine-tuning of the constants in the universe
    • Early life on earth
    • Logical truths

    God does not offer an explanation for any of these things.

    Its just a "God didit like he doesit because he wantit, therefore i am right because you cant explain it!". Furthermore, for allmost all of these "problems", science is beginning to pick them apart: Big Bang is a lot less mysterious today than it was 30 years ago (or 100 for that matter), progress is being made in studying how life could have arisen on the early earth, the fine-tuning argument is loosing constants every now and then (say it aint so), and so on and on.

    but its immaterial: Before the theist show how God offer an explanation for these things which is better than: 'we dont know', they are simply not an argument for God any less than lightning is an argument for Thor.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I have to ask you, honestly, do you actually believe that argument?

    Or are you just debating?

  • bohm
    bohm

    psac: yes! i actually think its quite persuasive.

    the only times im just debating for the heck of it is with politics :-).

  • tec
    tec

    Isn't Thor the god of thunder, and Zeus the god of lightning?

  • bohm
    bohm

    tec: He is the God of disordered warfare in norse mythology. he has a magic hammer which fly back like a boomerang when he throw it, and it can make lightning.

  • tec
    tec

    I was mostly just being a smart*ss :) Plus I was thinking about the previews for the new Thor movie coming out, where Zeus kicks Thor out of Olympus.

  • tec
    tec

    I do see the point you're making though, actually. Though we'll change it to Zeus... just because we know the properties that create lightning, doesn't mean that Zeus is not behind those properties.

    Same as the Big Bang, and all the others stuff, concerning God. None of those things DISprove a creator, though none of those things prove a creator either... though stacked together or apart they are certainly enough evidence for some people. What holds a lot of water for me in believing in a Creator is the spiritual nature of people. Where did that come from if nothing 'spiritual' exists? But Christ is the reason I believe in His Father as the creator. The rest is evidence that helps with my belief.

    Tammy

  • bohm
    bohm

    tammy -- i am only interested in how good a certain type of argument for god is. the overall question if he actually exist is not really the subject of this thread.

  • betterdaze
    betterdaze

    Thor's existence is indisputable! I know 'cause I saw him on TV:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q631uZ6DQzg

    ~Sue

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    You do realize that your argument is absed on 8th century knowledge and while it MAY hold up in that era, it doesn't hold up now.

    That said, is what you are insinuating is that "God" is merely a natural occuring "phenomena" that we just haven't explained yet then, perhaps, we have a discussion.

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