Was lying condemned? Was stealing? Have you lied or stolen? Did you lie today? Chances are you did. Liars will not inherit Gods Kingdom. But Christ paid the price for our sins to be forgiven. While this doesn't allow us to lie or steal freely, this certainly takes away from our "right" to judge others as unclean when we are practicing the same thing: SIN.
Does Genesis 19 condemn Homosexuality?
by brotherdan 116 Replies latest watchtower bible
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PSacramento
We can't just say that the bible doesn't condem homosexuality, it clearly does.
Jesus didn't talk about it, not that we know of and that is because it probably never came up.
Paul spoke about it because it was an issue he had to deal with because some gentiles were "OK" with it and he, quite frankly, wasn't.
Whether we agree is irrelevant to the fact that it is condemend in the bible.
Now, WHY it is and by WHOM is of course, another matter.
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brotherdan
Laverite:
That article was VERY interesting. While I can't say that I agree with the statement:
God’s original intention for humanity was androgyny
I do see a very valid argument. Her point was finely made here:
It’s true that same-sex intimacy is condemned in a few biblical passages. But these passages, , which I can count on one hand, are addressed to specific sex acts and specific persons, not to all humanity forever, and they can be interpreted in any number of ways.
The book of Leviticus, for example, is directed at Israelite men, offering instructions regarding legitimate sexual partners so long as they are living in Israel. Biblical patriarchs and kings violate nearly every one of these commandments.
Paul’s letters urge followers of Christ to remain celibate and blame all Gentiles in general for their poor sexual standards. Jesus, meanwhile, says nothing at all about same-sex pairing, and when he discusses marriage, he discourages it.
So why are we pretending that the Bible is dictating our sexual morals? It isn’t.
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brotherdan
We can't just say that the bible doesn't condem homosexuality, it clearly does.
Or does it condemn certain specific situations where homosexuality (and heterosexuality) were performed?
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PSacramento
Or does it condemn certain specific situations where homosexuality (and heterosexuality) were performed?
Lets start with the OT and Leviticus, or what I like to call the "Book of Laws made by Men climing to speak for God that no one really followed anyways":
The writer, speaking for God AND Moses, makes the statement that the Hebrews must not act like the Egyptians and then presents a list of things:
18 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
2 Speak to the people of Israel and say to them: I am the Lord your God. 3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not follow their statutes. 4 My ordinances you shall observe and my statutes you shall keep, following them: I am the Lord your God. 5 You shall keep my statutes and my ordinances; by doing so one shall live: I am the Lord .
6 None of you shall approach anyone near of kin to uncover nakedness: I am the Lord . 7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness. 8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is the nakedness of your father. 9 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether born at home or born abroad. 10 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son’s daughter or of your daughter’s daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness. 11 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, begotten by your father, since she is your sister. 12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is your father’s flesh. 13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is your mother’s flesh. 14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt. 15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law: she is your son’s wife; you shall not uncover her nakedness. 16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness. 17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, and you shall not take a her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are your b flesh; it is depravity. 18 And you shall not take c a woman as a rival to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.
19 You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness. 20 You shall not have sexual relations with your kinsman’s wife, and defile yourself with her. 21 You shall not give any of your offspring to sacrifice them d to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord . 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 You shall not have sexual relations with any animal and defile yourself with it, nor shall any woman give herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it: it is perversion.
24 Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for by all these practices the nations I am casting out before you have defiled themselves. 25 Thus the land became defiled; and I punished it for its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you shall keep my statutes and my ordinances and commit none of these abominations, either the citizen or the alien who resides among you 27 (for the inhabitants of the land, who were before you, committed all of these abominations, and the land became defiled); 28 otherwise the land will vomit you out for defiling it, as it vomited out the nation that was before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations shall be cut off from their people. 30 So keep my charge not to commit any of these abominations that were done before you, and not to defile yourselves by them: I am the Lord your God.
It is clear that this is how they are to behave and the reason is that so they don't act liek the Egyptians and because, according to the writer, God and Moses say it is to be so.
Certainly there is some good advice there, not sacrificing children comes to mind and not humping your sister-in-law is also a pretty good rule of thumb.
Obviously the writer wanted to m ake clear hat sicne they were the "holy people" that that MUST act like such and that means NOT doing with the bad guys do.
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Leolaia
laverite....I can't comment on the article at the moment but will try later. I have to disagree with the interpretation of Genesis. What she describes is among the spectrum of Jewish and Christian readings of the Eden narrative, but it is not original to Genesis itself but is rather an extrapolation from it like much of Jewish midrash. Her point about Jude's reading of Genesis 19 is correct, although it comes from a particular (Enochic) stream of Judaism, and I think she missed the opportunity to emphasize that the original tale concerned rape and not sexual orientation.
We can't just say that the bible doesn't condem homosexuality, it clearly does.
However "homosexuality" is a modern concept that does not correspond to what is described in the Bible. There is definite overlap but there is no 1:1 correspondence; the social categories in the ancient world were very different from those recognized in the West today. Homosexuality as a matter of sexual orientation is foreign to biblical thought.
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PSacramento
Leviticus 20 makes the penalties of breaking these laws clear, typically an shower of stones across the head and maybe a good bitch slap for good measure, till one is dead.
These were GENERAL laws applied to to general acts that are to be viewed as punishable, they were not for specific people/persons ( unless you view the whole of the Israelits as specific) or under special circumstances, no - trying to slip your aunt the salami was just as bad as trying to play "paddle the puppy" with your male neighbour.
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PSacramento
However "homosexuality" is a modern concept that does not correspond to what is described in the Bible. There is definite overlap but there is no 1:1 correspondence; the social categories in the ancient world were very different from those recognized in the West today. Homosexuality as a matter of sexual orientation is foreign to biblical thought.
I was gonna get to that, LOL< but allow me to play "devil's advocate":
This here:
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.
Seems pretty clear that anything sexual that is done with a woman is verboten with another man ( not to mention soem of it is anatomically impossible).
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factfinder
I personally no longer care if the bible condemns homosexuality.
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PSacramento
Factfinder,
And you shouldn't, the old laws of Leviticus are not applicable anymore, Christ has "liberated" us and fullfilled those Laws.
While Christ is silent in the matters of Homosexuality in the Bible, the Spirit speaks cleary in bothe Natural revelation AND personal revelation.
Homosexuality is NOT natural in the "procreative sense" of sexual intercourse, but it does seem that people are born that way and as such, though "not normal" in the sense that they are an anomility ( I think that is the word), they are indeed ( it seems) naturally "that way".
Love is the force that unites Us All, love for each other and for one another, a love from Our Lord that is NOT base don what we do, but based on His Love for Us.
Leave the determination of Sin ( if applicable) to God and for us flawed and fallen humans, leave the act of love, compassion, forgiveness and tolerance for those are the traits that Our Lord is fond of and those are the traits that HIs Grace breathes into Us.