WHY WOULD IT BE IMPORTANT WHETHER JESUS DIED ON A CROSS OR A STAKE? (page 2)

OnTheWayOut

The WTS argument about the cross is designed to make JW's feel totally uncomfortable around churches and people who wear crosses.

I thank everyone for the answers. I remember that in one of Ray Franz's books there is a section about the cross and how some people give it a quasi-magical nature. For the record, I was raised as a Very Devout Catholic, and yet I found that section to make sense.

I agree with someone (whose name escapes me now) who said they should focus on that aspect instead, rather than this foolish red herring.

dgp

Brother Dan, I'll read your blog and give an opinion later.

Band on the Run

The key is the cross is salvation. I could not care less if it were purple with big blue polka dots. The important part is the nature of Christ and Christ's sacrifice. They are so legalistic. For people who would dismiss Jewish law which shephered a group through thousands of years, their hands are not clean.

They should focus on the main message, not these side details. If you are uneducated on a topic, though, the way they write about these picayune issues sounds legitimizing. The only to see their flaws is to read outside the Witnesses. Catch 22.

dgp

Brother Dan, your blog has very clear but, above all, believable information.

I need to qualify my previous statement. I was a Very Devout Catholic, but an odd one in a way. I never thought the saints were important except as role models. Believe it or not, the Virgin Mary was never at the top for me. If I'm not wrong, Hans Küng says there is a group in Switzerland that is recognized as Catholic though they don't really make a fuss about saints and the Virgin Mary and the like. I would be one of them, I guess.

All this is to say that I never doubted the idea that Jesus had died on a cross (yes, I knew that was the way the Romans executed people) and yet had no trouble seeing that, for some people, it really becomes an object of worship.

If I were a believer I would definitely NOT doubt Jesus died on a cross, not a stake. At most, I wouldn't be seriously concerned about it.

Whether it was a pagan symbol or not, I wouldn't care.

I also noticed that either you or someone else complained about how atheists hijack threads where religious issues are discussed. You know what? You're right. I must have pissed more than one person here with my fierce atheism. There are some threads where an atheist does have a role to play, but in some others, he'd better excuse himself. That's what I'll do. JWN has to be open to everyone. I would hate to be the bully who drives people out.

OUTLAW

Whether it was a pagan symbol or not, I wouldn't care......dgp

Thats always made me laugh..The Cross was a Pagan symbol..

The Romans were Pagan..What else would Romans nail Jesus to?..

A Revolving Denny`s Sign?..

......................... ...OUTLAW

JeffT

I have thought for a very long time that the somebody (probably Rutherford) created this issues to control the argument. If witnesses are out at the door arguing about cross vs stake, they are NOT talking about what really matter: the meaning of Jesus death.

Either that or was a vampire.

villabolo

Brotherdan:

"The majority of Christians do NOT idolize the cross, give worship through it, or promote any other type of worship of it. It is merely a symbol of Christianity."

Actually brotherdan, the Catholic Church in its rites does prostate itself before a crucifix, which includes the image of Jesus; and that does qualify as a "graven" image and idolatry.

Many fundamentalist protestants, who have no problem with a cross in their church ,would consider a crucifix and the rites associated with it as going over the line.

Villabolo

NewYork44M

Someone can look up the reference. I distinctly remember a Wt that equated the cross with a penis and that the worship of the cross represents just one more aspect of sex crazed Babylon the Great.

villabolo

This reminds me of a secondary anti cross argument used in the Babylon The Great Has Fallen book where the fact that Babylonians would scratch a 't' mark to represent their god Tammuz, somehow reinforced the notion that the cross was pagan.

The thing to keep in mind about this ridiculous non-issue is that the cross is a very simple geometric symbol. Chimpanzees and even elephants have been given paint brushes and been known to paint crosses* and spirals and other abstract designs.

SCrosses and spirals are pagan symbols. Does this mean that these semi-sentient animals are being possesed by the Devil in what would obviously be a pointless exercise in mocking Mr "I'm not a Pagan" Jehovah?

Bottom line. The cross is such a simple geometric design, that it is a meaningless and trivial coincidence to find it in "pagan" (Read non Hebrew Scripture) cultures.

Villabolo

http://books.google.com/books?id=qEf4OkurjPkC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=chimpanzees+painting+cross&source=bl&ots=ZxPMXhbQws&sig=FRaYANSs6BMAR8Ggd5HH7ig6Kl4&hl=en&ei=UbhITdr5GY7EsAOBlvmcCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=chimpanzees%20painting%20cross&f=false

WHY WOULD IT BE IMPORTANT WHETHER JESUS DIED ON A CROSS OR A STAKE?

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