The First Cause

by sabastious 18 Replies latest jw friends

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Mainstream religion considers their versions of God the First Cause. They also assign a name to that First Cause (The Lord, Allah, Jesus, Jehovah etc). To me, this is a contradictory stance and my reasons might be a little wordy (they were worldy at first but I figured I would just remove the L).

    The begin, I think we have to wrap our heads around this First Cause as much as our minds are capable of. This would be a force that caused everything in existence. It's easier to fathom if this cause is non-intellegent like the Big Bang for instance.

    Lets just say, for the sake of the progression of this post, that the Big Bang actually happened (lets not squabble over the Big Bang, please). If a form of intelligence caused this bang then it would imply that it's existence transcends our own and was there before the big bang (since the Big Bang caused our existence). Well, what was this intelligence doing before it created all that we know to exist within the universe. We'll never know in this life time, will we? Because so many eons of time have past since this form of intelligence started our universal ball rolling... whether that was through the Big Bang or not. The amount of power and intelligence this entity would contain is also equally unfathomable given the amount of time it would have to observe, learn and progress. Therefore this alleged First Cause Intelligent Entity should be held to a high standard, correct?

    Ugh, I can feel this train of thought starting to roughen, but I will continue on.

    So Mainstream Religion obviously doesn't consider the Big Bang, or however this universe was formed, the First Cause, but merely our cause. They believe that existence had been going on way before we ended up as a twinkle in God's eye. Actually, the Bible alleges that he existed for eternity before we even became that twinkle!

    This doesn't make any sense, and quite frankly, I would be pissed if this God, that everyone keeps raving about, is watching me type this because he created me without the capability to fathom such concepts. Why withold it from me? Might it be that he cannot bestow such knowledge upon me? I can only see a few reasons for this:

    1. He also cannot fathom the Infinity (he might have no idea where he came from) therefore we cannot fathom the Infinity
    2. Humans have to learn these things for themselves and the options are limited from his end other than to watch it unfold
    3. He, for whatever reason, is purposefully witholding my capacity to fathom concepts he himself can fathom
    4. We were not created by intelligence therefore God doesn't exist

    Sorry for my ranting, do they have Ranters Anonymous?

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Anyway I just realized I didn't really tie up my post, lol.

    I'll just edit my title.

    -Sab

  • stark7
    stark7

    Hi Sab,

    You mention that mainstream religion considers their version of God the First Cause, but unless I'm mistaken, in Islam, Allah creates from an already existing universe comprised of a smoke like substance. I don't know of a religion that has their particular God creating ex nihilo (out of nothing), except for Judaism and Christianity.

    This is important because science seems to be saying that the universe, at one time, did not exist and then; (big bang) it existed.

    But that aside, you mentioned that the first cause is easier to fathom if it's non-intelligent like the big bang...but the big bang is not the first cause if it was, it would have to exist before it existed to be that first cause.

    It seems reasonable and logical that the true first cause has to be eternal, and therefore uncaused.

    If this "First Cause" brought the universe, with all it's complexity, and it's exact nuclear forces into being then, fathomable or not, wouldn't it/he have to be intelligent?

    And as for this First Cause being held to a higher standard, maybe so but the problem is we, as finite beings wouldn't know what that standard should be.

    As to your assertions:

    1. Since He is infinite He would have to be able to fathom the infinite...it's the finite that can't fathom the infinite.

    2. Just because we can or can't figure these things out doesn't mean He is limited from His end...of course the Bible limits God...God can't lie for instance...and logic limits God...God can't create an uncreated God.

    3. As for this one I'd say, yes.

    4. If we look at the information in our DNA, and the complexity of the nano-technology in our bodies (cells, flagellum, and what not) then don't we have to conclude that our Creator is an intelligent being?

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    If this "First Cause" brought the universe, with all it's complexity, and it's exact nuclear forces into being then, fathomable or not, wouldn't it/he have to be intelligent?

    ^ Intelligence is something that is formed through a specific process, correct? How can intelligence be the First Cause? I know we are talking about things that we don't understand, but how could something or someone always have intricate knowledge and understanding of everything... by default? It doesn't follow the laws of the universe at all...

    As to your assertions:

    1. Since He is infinite He would have to be able to fathom the infinite...it's the finite that can't fathom the infinite.

    2. Just because we can or can't figure these things out doesn't mean He is limited from His end...of course the Bible limits God...God can't lie for instance...and logic limits God...God can't create an uncreated God.

    3. As for this one I'd say, yes.

    4. If we look at the information in our DNA, and the complexity of the nano-technology in our bodies (cells, flagellum, and what not) then don't we have to conclude that our Creator is an intelligent being?

    ^

    1. If God had a beginning and no end he would still be infinite, but that's not what God allegedly is. He is infinte in both time directions.

    2. I didn't say he is limited, I said that him being limited would be a viable explanation for why he chose not to bestow the ultimate knowledge upon us.

    4. Of course, but that's not what I am taking issue with. I am totally fine with the explanation of our bodies through creation. What I take issue with is sacred text perporting that he never had a beginning. There is only one First Cause and it would be the only thing in existence that doesn't have a beginning.

    Sorry if I am being confusing.

    -Sab

  • designs
    designs

    Infinity were nice Surfboards

    www.surfrider.org

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Infinity were nice Surfboards

    I can't surf because I have phobia of water creatures, namely fish and sharks.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Oh and btw, welcome to the forum stark7!

    -Sab

  • stark7
    stark7

    Thanks for the welcome Sab,

    I'd like to respond to your post but I've got to figure out how to do the quotes in here...I'm working in the word processor and can't figure how to quote like you did...simple cut and paste doesn't seem to work

    ...the nerve huh, talking about God, the infinite, the complexities of the universe, and I can't work the chatroom

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    ...the nerve huh, talking about God, the infinite, the complexities of the universe, and I can't work the chatroom

    This WYSIWYG is pretty buggy. I just edit the HTML because that's what I do for my day job. I feel sorry for the people who have to mess with it without HTML/CSS knowledge.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Are you an EX-JW stark?

    -Sab

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