The Gentile Times Reconsidered

by Spade 382 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    The fulfillment of the "devastations of Jerusalem [namely,] seventy years" at Daniel 9:2 refers to the end of Babylon's seventy years of world domination and the technical end of Jerusalem's devasted condition. It does not mean that Jerusalem - and by extension Judah - was devastated (without inhabitant) exactly seventy years.

    http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-6.html#M

    First, one of the Jehovah’s Witnesses' critical errors is their failure to interpret Daniel 9:2 in light of the original prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11 and other verses which explain in detail that the seventy years of servitude referred to many nations falling under the domination of the Babylonian Empire. The key date, and the focus of Daniel’s discernment, was the completion, or end, of that domination which marked the beginning of the process by which the exiles would return to their homeland.

    As explained at the beginning of this paper, part of the problem is that the Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret the word “fulfill” to somehow mean “equal” in order to equate Jerusalem’s devastation with seventy years. To fulfill seventy years of devastation means, to them, that the devastation lasted seventy years, but that is incorrect. “Fulfill” when referring to prophetic years means the end of those years, the accomplishment of a prophecy. Daniel discerned that the end of Jewish servitude (and that of the nations) had begun.

    With this in mind it would be helpful to revisit Daniel 9:2.

    ... 2 in the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, ...

    The word of Jehovah that occurred to Jeremiah is a direct reference to Jeremiah 25:11 and accompanying verses, which detail seventy years of many nations’ servitude to Babylon. Jehovah’s word with respect to the seventy years and the context within which it was presented: a) directed the prophecy to all nations, not only Judah, b) reflected Jehovah’s sweeping grant of authority to the king of Babylon, that all the nations and beasts would serve him, c) listed all the nations that would come to serve the king of Babylon one way or the other, d) stated that “these nations" would serve the king of Babylon seventy years, e) the seventy years would end with Babylon’s fall and the beginning of Persia’s reign, and f) Jehovah would then turn his attention to his exiled people and return them home.

    Continuing with Daniel 9:2:

    … for fulfilling (ending) the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely’] seventy years. (emphasis added)

    Jeremiah understood, or discerned, that the seventy years of Jeremiah 25:11 marked the end, accomplishment or fulfillment of that seventy-year period of servitude. But he could not have believed Jerusalem was uninhabited seventy years because according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, the end of seventy years was still in the future when they returned home. Daniel was fully aware of Scripture which marked the end of the seventy years while the exiles were still in Babylon, when the empire fell and the Persians began to reign.

    In light of all that we have learned so far, and in light of the original prophecy, it is simply not credible or possible that Daniel meant that Jerusalem lay devastated without an inhabitant for seventy years following Jerusalem’s destruction. It could not have.

    Secondly, there is a contradiction in the Jehovah’s Witnesses' seventy-year uninhabited devastation theory. On the one hand they claim that the seventy years of devastation began with Jerusalem’s destruction: “We believe that the most direct reading of Jeremiah 25:11 and other texts is that the 70 years would date from when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and left the land of Judah desolate. Jeremiah 52:12-15, 24-27; 36:28-31.” Kingdom Come at p.10.

    On the other hand, the Jehovah’s Witnesses in Setting the Record Straight at pp. 4-5 claim that the seventy years began later, exactly in the 7th month of 607 B.C.E. when the last of the remnant fled to Egypt. As outlined above, much transpired between Jerusalem’s fall including the official appointment of Gedaliah as governor, his assassination, the capture and removal of Jews by Ishmael to the sons of Ammon, their rescue and return to Judah, and along with other dispersed Jews who returned to Judah and picked summer fruit, their eventual flight to Egypt.

    Third, Daniel could not have understood the seventy years to be years of devastation of Judah without inhabitant if it began upon the destruction of Jerusalem because Judah was still inhabited by those remaining over whom Gedaliah was appointed governor. And, counting forward exactly seventy years to the month, the exiles would not have yet returned to Judah to re-inhabit it thereby falling short again of seventy years.

    Fourth, neither could Daniel have understood the seventy years to be years of devastation without inhabitant if it began when the last of the Jewish remnant fled to Egypt because counting forward exactly seventy years from the month puts the end of the alleged captivity and servitude upon the Jews’ return, and as it hopefully should be very clear by now, the seventy years ended while the Jews were in Babylon when Persia began its reign which amounts to 68 - 69 years, not seventy.

    Fifth, Daniel was fully aware of Leviticus 26:32 - 35 which Ezra quoted in part at 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21 where Moses wrote that the desolation would end while the exiles were still in Babylon, in the land of their enemies, not when they returned. He would not have understood the seventy years to have ended two years in the future when they returned. Once again, the time frame falls short of seventy years.

    Sixth, in addition to the same reasons stated above, Ezra, the author of 2 Chronicles 36 could not have meant that “All the days of laying desolated it kept the Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years” referred to seventy uninhabited years of devastation beginning with Jerusalem’s destruction. Nowhere does Ezra claim that the land would be, or was, uninhabited. Desolated, yes, but not uninhabited. The reference to keeping the land Sabbath is metaphor - the land was unproductive and rested, not uninhabited. In fact, “Sabbath” connotes a human condition or presence, defined as “the day of rest and religious observance of the Jews….” Paying off its sabbaths is akin to paying off a loan, which was fulfilled or accomplished or ended or finished while the exiles were still in the land of their enemies, Babylon. The fulfillment of seventy years at 2 Chronicles 26 referred to the conclusion of the desolation and sabbatical-like condition which began with Babylon’s fall and Persia’s rise to power. Ezra was not saying the land was desolated without inhabitant for seventy years ending in 537 B.C.E.

    One might then ask how the Jews could re-inhabit Judah while still physically in Babylon? The answer is that a) Daniel stated that Jerusalem was already inhabited, and therefore Judah was inhabited, when the seventy year prophecy ended after Babylon’s fall, and b) the prophecy did not require a physical return. An apt parallel can be drawn with Cyrus’ decree setting the Jews free; they were declared free and were therefore free even before they left on their journey home. Similarly, the land was no longer paying off its sabbaths even though the Jews had not returned to their soil. The debt, or condition, was paid off while they were in Babylon; c) physical occupation by the returnees would not end the devastated condition. The land was as devasted the day after their return as it was the day before their return.

    It bears repeating, because the "sabbaths” were paid off while the exiles were still in Babylon Ezra could not have meant that the reference to seventy years meant that Judah lie desolate without inhabitant exactly seventy years ending upon the exiles’ physical return in 537 B.C.E. It’s impossible. Remember, Ezra also had access to Jeremiah’s prophecy. He knew the fulfillment and timing of seventy years was tied directly to the fall of the Babylonian Empire and the rise of Persian royalty.

    Lastly, lest one forget, there is a mountain of archeological and historical evidence that proves that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 B.C.E. but that it was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E., and that it remained in that severely devastated condition 48-50 years, not seventy years. And, that the exiles removed at Jerusalem’s destruction were not in Babylon seventy years, but 48-50 years. Of course, one is free to ignore such evidence and pretend it does not exist, but it is preferable to harmonize one’s interpretation of the Bible with archeology and history which is possible if Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E., but not if it was destroyed in 607 B.C.E.

    Even though the Jehovah’s Witnesses have attempted to merge the two parts of Jeremiah 25:11, to borrow the seventy years of servitude to improperly extend the length of devastation, in the final analysis all of this talk about seventy years of an uninhabited devastated place is moot; it is a non-existent element of Jeremiah’s prophecy. The concept of seventy years of an utterly uninhabited devastated place, an object of astonishment, is a false doctrine used to gain twenty years in order to reach 607 B.C.E. It is an illogical, unscriptural and gross misinterpretation because the seventy years pertained to the nations’ servitude to the king(s) of Babylon, not Judah’s devastation. And that is precisely what Jehovah’s prophets understood.

    The Jehovah's Witnesses' understanding that Jeremiah 25:11 is a composite of “devastation” and "servitude” - that it is actually one prophecy, one indivisible unit - is flawed in yet another way because if it really is a composite it cuts both ways. This would mean that all of “these nations” which served the Babylonian Empire were also “uninhabited” places and objects of astonishment for seventy years, which contravenes history, Scripture and is patently false. The fact that the word "and" separates these two concepts does not equate them or join them together. The phrase "Frank and Henry" does not mean that "Frank is Henry."

    539 B.C.E. marked the end of the seventy-year servitude prophecy with the finishing off of Babylon and the rise of Persia and the Medes. Counting back seventy years takes one to 609 B.C.E. and the last Assyrian battle at Haran that saw the demise of Assyria at the hands of the then king of Babylon. This is the only correct and workable chronological slot or window the seventy years of Jeremiah 25:11 fits into.

    http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html

  • saltyoldlady
    saltyoldlady

    Lesson Two on Bible Chronology - Next pick up the thread from the time of the flood down to Abraham's birth - in Genesis Chapter 11 verse 10 - history of Shem. I count 1 year for the time being on the ark so arrive at a date of 2473 BC - Genesis 8:13 - Noah was in his 601st year when he came out of the ark and in Genesis 7:6 he was 600 when he went into the ark but many don't bother to include that time span in their reckoning and you may leave it out if you wish.

    But next we come into a major difference that I make in the usual chronologies. I come up with a total of 292 years after coming off the ark until the time Abraham born arriving at a date of 2181 BC for his birth. The old timers will recognize that figure being a major date from the old Russel charts with their 2181 year time spans. I prefer to interpret the verse telling the age of Terah after which he produced Abraham, etc. in the same way as all the preceding verses - that Abraham could have been born when Terah age 70 or thereabouts. WTS prefers to think he was born when Terah 135 yrs old - I'll just stick with consistency in interpretation of the numbers as given by preference. Terah - age 70 per scriptures. To do otherwise will get one into a heap of trouble as we will eventually see.

    So just add up all the years there in Chapter 11 to verify my 292 years for yourself. A few others have drawn the same conclusions as I, I discovered in Morton Edgar's book on the Pyramids. So this idea is not original with me - but for my discovery it was just the scriptures talking plain and simple. No efforts to arrive at some preconceived dates was one of my guidelines.

    Lesson 3 will proceed with the time from birth of Abraham to the Exodus from Egypt.

  • saltyoldlady
    saltyoldlady

    Lesson 3 of Bible Chronology - We left off with Abraham being born 2181 BC - Gen 12:4 tells us when Abram (Abraham) was 75 years old - that would be 2106 BC God told him to be on his way out of Haran and on into the land of Canaan and He would make a great nation of Abraham - a covenant promise. Gal 3:17 tells us 430 years later after this Covenant the Law came into being - meaning the Law handed down at Mt Sinai - so that makes quick work of that period of history. And brings us to 1676 BC for the Exodus - straight and simple.

    This is much earlier than any other Bible scholars I know of place the Exodus. But it is just straight Bible Scripture so I decided to press on with it and see what happened - one interesting correlation I did note was the possibility that Ahmose I was the Pharoah of the Exodus and he is generally thought to have died about 1550 BC - that puts us 126 years off per the Egyptian records. But one thing that snapped right out into my nose (I have a looong nose) was the 126 year discrepancy would put us at the year 4,000 BC for the beginning of man's history or at least this Biblical history - smacks of Ussher who was widely accepted as The Authority for many many years - more on all of that another day but for now and the sake of simplicity stick to the 1676 date - turns out in the end it works much better with Egyptian history as now known also.

    And this was all so simple might as well proceed with the march in the wilderness - 40 years under Moses brings us to 1636 BC. Joshua 14:7 thru 10 gives us our next clue - Caleb was 40 years old when sent out upon the spying mission with Joshua and the other ten. This was in the 2nd year of the Exodus. And he says it has been 45 years since then - he is now 85 years old so we can conclude six years of camping in the wilderness and wandering and conquering of the land were involved before this point and that leaves us at 1630 BC. Some say from the entrance into Canaan until the dividing up of the land took 7 years - I believe the WTS says 6 years based on what I have outlined above. So give a little - plus or take a year here and there the date of the division of the land might actually be 1629 BC.

    Next lesson gets down into the first thorny problem and time gap.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @saltyoldlady, Are you a JW?

  • saltyoldlady
    saltyoldlady

    No Mean Mr. Mustard - I am a "has been" - was one for many decades but DA'd over a year ago. Now really - do you think I would be endeavoring to show how the Bible showed 607 BC to be wrong and 587 BC to be right for the destruction of Jerusalem if I still was one? But admit I must write like one after so many years in the org - wordy and verbose. sorry

    Trying to make it short and simple but having to do it in installments because of my other obligations at the moment.

    Lesson 4 - The Joshua - Judges Gap. Scriptures give us very little to go on - seems like a blank wall at first. They do tell us he died at age 110 but we do not know when he was born. It is obvious some time does need to be in this timeline for Joshua's administration after division of the land - it is very unlikely he just popped off at that moment. It is not unreasonable to assume he might have been close to the age of Caleb so temporarily I plugged that into the effort - if he was 85 at the time of division of the land and he died at age 110 he would have had 25 years more and that would be quite likely. That would have him dying about 1610 BC. As it turned out when I got all done it became obvious he died in 1608 BC - close to the previous speculation - WTS just leaves any time consideration out of the picture for Joshua. We just can't do that in an honest search for truth.

    Next we have the period of the Judges - that one is simple - count up all the time spans given in the Book of Judges plus include the 40 years of Eli's judging - at first I came up with only 410 years in the Book of Judges and was puzzled but later reading I Kings I realized Eli must be included and that completed the 450 years for judges perfectly, just as stated in older translations in Acts 13:20 before the current Kingdom Interlinear messed with this verse - because of their inability to get 450 years for Judges into their time schemes. So subtracting 450 years brings us down to 1158 BC with the death of Eli. Obviously I do not agree with Russell that this is a tangled mess at all - it was only tangled up for him and others because they simply couldn't fit it in having made errors in Abraham's day.

    Lesson 5 will deal with Samuel and the problems presented there since it is another area not spelled out just precisely.

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Saltyoldlady:

    "For those of you who think a female unlikely to be a Bible chronology buff I'm here to tell you that is NOT SO!!!!"

    My apologies to you, saltyoldlady.

    It's men who who are mostly inclined towards the mathematical side of things, but I realize there are exceptions, just like there are little girls who play with toy tanks.

    Villabolo

  • saltyoldlady
    saltyoldlady

    That's alright Villobolo - I forgive you.

    And now for Lesson 5 - looks like I'm mostly just talking to myself here - but that's okay - it's good exercise for the grey matter.

    Re Samuel - Bible tells us he was a young lad when he revealed Jehovah's message to Eli - Josephus pegs it as 12 years and that fits young lad so I'll play with that one - Since Eli died in 1158 BC that would mean Samuel had to be born at least by 1170 BC. We don't know exactly but 70 is good enough to fit the other definition we want - how old was he when he annointed King Saul - will this fit? The Bible tells us at 1 Samuel chapter 8:1 that Samuel had grown old when he appointed his sons as judges and he was definitely old when he annointed King Saul cause it was enough time after the appointment of his sons that the people had discerned they did not want the sons to take the role of leadership - they had not walked in their father's ways - they wanted a king instead. The Bible defines old as 70 to 80 so if Samuel was age 70 when he participated in the matter of making Saul King it would fit 1100 BC. And that works nicely. Almost no one else grants Samuel that long a time of judging - I could only find one other - Pascal - most have been thrown off by the 20 years plus 7 months detail thinking that was the length but in truth I believe this was probably the beginning of his serving as a Priest for the nation - had to be at least age 30 and if one adds 12 to 21 we arrive at 33 - probably identifies the time Samuel begins - see 1 Samuel 7:1-5 - states he took up judging - so we have to allow some time for him to be judging after that. This would all fit into the age 70 scenario - so unfortunately this part of the chronology just human reasoning. But any shorter time span won't allow him to become old and grey before Saul selected. He was old enough the people were beginning to worry about the possibility of his passing away and who would be over them in that case.

    Now the period of the Kings - just add up the years again for the various Kings of Judah - because that is the line through whom the Christ will come - and we get 513 - WTS gets 510 but they had to do some fancy footwork to arrive at that figure - not justified by the scripture record itself. I'll stick with the 513 myself - and just guess where that lands us - 587 BC. My, oh my. You can't imagine my surprise when that happened. But there was no way 607 was going to fit no matter what gyrations one tried to do - so I had to accept it - the GB is still unwilling to do so. But by just working with Scripture figures and trying to be reasonable in the gap periods - Joshua and Samuel - it anchors 587 BC as the end of the line of Kings. I'll stop for here - the rest has already been well covered by others.

    Summary - 4130 beginning

    2470 date for flood

    2181 birthdate for Abraham

    Thus 2081 birthdate for Isaac, 2021 birthdate for Jacob and Esau, etc. etc.

    1676 date of the Exodus

    1636 date for crossing the Jordan into Canaan

    1630 for division of the land

    1608 - death of Joshua

    1158 - death of Eli

    1100 - beginning of the line of Kings with Saul

    587 - end of the period of the Kings with burning of Jerusalem

    And the fun part about all these dates is that now all (or perhaps I should say most - may be some I have not investigated yet) the secular history dates for interlapping with other world powers jive right on. That is amazing and fun. And perhaps the best substantiated date of all is 609 BC - five different world powers interact - Josiah for Judah killed in this passage - the above chronology has his reign beginning in 640 BC - ending in 609 BC. The most critical tie-in is that of Assur-Umballit II of the Assyrians - his reign is only 2 years - from 611 to 609, The next - Egyptian recoreds indicate Necho's reign of 15 years from 610 to 595. That one fits perfectly. He was coming to aid Assur-Umballit II and it was Necho who kills Josiah. Nabopolasser of the Babylonians reigned from 626 to 605. So this makes a fourth confirmation - 609 marks the beginning of the Babylonian 70 years of world power - ending in 539 - perfection. It is 609 that Babylon finishes off the last Assyrian King for that period - and the ally of Nabopolasser was Cyaxerxes - his reign is a long one - 625 to 585 so he makes a 5th confirmation. But the most interesting factor about his history is Herodotus identified his death as being shortly after a battle with Alyattes of Lydia. This battle was interrupted by a total solar eclipse of May 28, 585 BC. Rather difficult for WTS to push that one around. So 609 BC is even better anchor than 539 BC in my opinion. These items are all identified in Carol Olof Jonnson's magnificent work. And the WTS has known about it for over 40 years yet they fail to adjust.

    Another tidbit - Franz realized that Russell used to calculate 580 years for the I Kings 6:1 scripture thanks to Benjamin Wilson and the scripture actually says 480 years so that is what led Freddie to slash off a hundred years. Many Bible scholars consider this particular scripture to be a forgery - that the date has been inserted perhaps from a marginal notation. That item is open to debate but no chronologer has ever been successful at accommodating it - Solomon's Temple per my calculations was begun in 1016 - Solomon began reigning in 1020 BC - 4th year 2nd month pushes it to 1016 or maybe 1017. Funny thing if instead of trying to anchor the exodus from Egypt 480 years prior - which just will not work - it is possible that some scribe wrote the words 480 years and Exodus - in the margin - and if one proceeds forward instead of backward one arrives at an Exodus - but this time from Babylon - not Egypt. Don't know - just possibilities. But even the 70 years of fasting spoken about in Zechariah tie up to perfection with the 587 BC date. So one can only conclude the WTS is being "obtuse."

    Another item that may anchor the WTS with their current dates is their whole basis for authority anchored to 1918 - used to be the double for Jacob's birth and they believed that signified the birth of a new nation - Spiritual Israel - which they think they represent. Of course now that double would be 2018. LOL. The Israel's double concept is mentioned in fine print footnote in Divine Proclaimer's Book but it used to carry great weight with the older brothers. Was eventually abandoned.

  • Retrovirus
    Retrovirus

    Thank you for this clear explanation, saltyOldLady!

    Retro (another notveryyoung lady)

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Martin Anstey in his "Romance of Bible Chronology" believes theonly interpretation of the "70 weeks" prophecy can be that of Cyrus and thus he dated the 1st of Cyrus in 457 BCE based on the baptism of Christ in 27 CE. That is the same as 455 BCE when we correct that date to 29 CE. Thus he did note that the Persian Period was 82 years too long.

    Joephus claims that there were 70 years from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus. That directly contradicts the 587/586 BC fall of Jerusalem if you date the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of the Jews in 537 BCE. 70 years plus 537 BCE is 607 BCE. So Josephus supports that relative chronology, only 607 BCE is year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II, the year of the last deportation.

    If we follow Martin Anstey and date the 1st of Cyrus and the return from Babylon in 455 BCE, then 70 years earlier would date year 23 to 525 BCE. That is the true Biblical date for year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. But that also means you have a match for the VAT4956 in lines 3 and 14 which match 511 BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. Thus the VAT4956 confirms this was the original chronology, at least for the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE and the 37th of Nebuchadnezzar in 511 BCE.

    587/586 BCE is the promoted and accepted dating for the NB Period only because that was the last revision. The VAT4956, though, preempts all that dating and confirms the Bible''s timeline that dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE. Unfortunately, JWs trusted the 539 BCE dating for the fall of Babylon as a "pivotal date" and then applied some of the Bible's chronology of top that, such as the 70-year period of exile. They quote Josephus regarding the 70 years occurring in the context after the fall of Jerusalem, but Josephus specifically acknowledges the 70 years of exile are served by the last deportees in year 23, not as a dating tool for the fall of Jerusalem. Jerusalem falls 74 years before the 1st of Cyrus.

    So even though it is clear the academic world has a consensus to reflect the surviving revised chronology, that in no way means it agrees with traditional Jewish history (Josephus) or the Bible itself. Fortunately, we can get an absolute date for another timeline from the VAT4956 which gives us dating for both the revised and original timeline, dating year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II to both 511 BCE and 568 BCE. Of course, the cryptic dating always preempts the camouflage date so the VAT4956 is not really giving us a choice. It is confirming the 568 BCE dating is fabricated and that the 511 BCE dating was the original dating.

    But this is a good point. Once we come up to the plate and actually correct the timeline, all those references will suddenly be obsolete and outdated. Maybe that's the ultimate fear!! It is ironic that right now, claiming Jerusalem fell in 587/586 BCE is still accurate. But once we are convinced otherwise, which we are, then all those references are obsolete! Maybe no one wants to really be considered obsolete and so they suppress any chronology diversions, including a light on chronology of JWs, even though their chronology is wrong as well.

    LS

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Larsinger:

    "Once we come up to the plate and actually correct the timeline, all those references will suddenly be obsolete and outdated."

    It reminds me of Charles Russell who, in mockery of the Adventists (from which he inherited his chronological psychosis), said that he had a superior method of calculating dates.

    "Maybe no one wants to really be considered obsolete and so they suppress any chronology diversions..."

    Maybe it's Chronologism itself that is obsolete.

    Villabolo

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