Well, much like the entire Bible, it has no practical application whatsoever, Spade. It's not even entertaining.
The Gentile Times Reconsidered
by Spade 382 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jonathan dough
Spade: If Babylon wasn't the dominant world power in Jeremiah's day or any other, than Jeremiah 25:8-11 has no application to any other nation except Israel.
Complete nonsense, and Jer 25:13 proves you wrong. The prophecy in Jeremiah 25:8-11 was directed to all the nations, not just Israel.
13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations.
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jonathan dough
Spade: If Babylon wasn't the dominant world power in Jeremiah's day or any other, than Jeremiah 25:8-11 has no application to any other nation except Israel.
Your statement is backwards and begs the question. With little to back it up, and ignoring scripture, you assume that Jer 25:8-11 applies to nations other than Israel (which it does) only if Babylon was the dominant world power. And then you contradict yourself by implying it wasn't a dominant world power. Here's why you are wrong.
Even the WTS claimed that Babylon was the dominant world power during the span of years covered by the prophecy, and therefore, regardless of what you might argue, according to your leaders, and your logic, the prophecy applies to other nations, not just Jerusalem. "The tree is shown to have an application to Nebuchadnezzar, who at that point in history was the head of the dominant World Power, Babylon." Insight at 134. You, and the WTS, have proven yourselves wrong. Furthermore, the prophecy applied to nations other than Judah, and Jerusalem, according to the clear, unambiguous language of chapter 25.
a) (9) and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about;
b) (11) And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’
c) The prohpecy was directed to all the nations round about, (13) "even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations."
d) The nations are specifically listed which includes Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, among many others: (18) "...namely, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings, her princes, to make them a devastated place, an object of astonishment, something to whistle at and a malediction, just as at this day; 19 Phar´aoh the king of Egypt and his servants and his princes and all his people; 20 and all the mixed company, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Phi·lis´tines and Ash´ke·lon and Ga´za and Ek´ron and the remnant of Ash´dod; 21 E´dom and Mo´ab and the sons of Am´mon; 22 and all the kings of Tyre and all the kings of Si´don and the kings of the island that is in the region of the sea; 23 and De´dan and Te´ma and Buz and all those with hair clipped at the temples; 24 and all the kings of the Arabs and all the kings of the mixed company who are residing in the wilderness; 25 and all the kings of Zim´ri and all the kings of E´lam and all the kings of the Medes; 26 and all the kings of the north who are near and far away, one after the other, and all the [other] kingdoms of the earth that are on the surface of the ground; and the king of She´shach himself will drink after them."
e) (29) "for there is a sword that I am calling against all the inhabitants of the earth,’
Accordingly, whether the Neo-Babylonian Empire was the dominating world power in fact, or merely dominant relative to that region is irrelevant. The issue is whether the prophecy applied to nations other than Judah and Jerualem. And that cannot be determined by merely labeling the empire dominant or not. I strongly suggest you begin with scripture and logically move forward from there. Don't assume your position and try to fit square pegs into round holes after the fact. -
jonathan dough
WTS Insight Book: [Jerusalem] constituted a divine block or impediment for Nebuchadnezzar in attaining his goal of world domination.
Your leaders are wrong here, as well, because if the Medes were the dominant world power, then then they also would have been standing in Nebuchadnessar's way. Conquering Jerusalem didn't turn Babylon into the dominant world power. And if Babylon never became the dominant world power as you imply, then Jerusalem wasn't the impediment and block to world domination as they claim.
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villabolo
Jonathan, I applaud your persistence but please give up on this guy. Spade is absolutely impenetrable to reason. It's not about the factual or the logical with people like him/her. It's about the psychological.
He/she has absolutely no curiosity about the issue and is intellectually bankrupt. Anyone who engages in circular reasoning, like Spade does, is not a person who can be debated in goodwill.
The only reason I, and I'm sure Outlaw, keep posting our ridicule is because other posters are trying to engage him seriously. I simply want to remind him that he's not worthy of being taken seriously.
Villabolo
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villabolo
Puuuhleeese!
Spade's insanity will never die!
Villabolo
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GOrwell
Let me fix that for you..
Spade said :
I don't reject the data and methods by which a date is established, I simply analyze ancient history selectively when coming to conclusions. An examination of the Bible canon shows that its contents measure up to standards of excellence in every respect. I have more confidence in the accuracy of secular chronology if the secular evidence agrees with it.
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AnnOMaly
Ann formerly: This makes no sense. Babylon was already the dominant 'world power' 20 or so years BEFORE Jerusalem was destroyed.
Spade:This is what the Insight book says about it.
it-1 p. 134 Appointed Times of the Nations
The fact is evident that the key point of the vision is Jehovah God's exercise of irresistible sovereignty in "the kingdom of mankind," and this provides the guide to the full meaning of the vision. The tree is shown to have an application to Nebuchadnezzar, who at that point in history was the head of the dominant World Power, Babylon. Yet, prior to Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem, the typical kingdom of God ruling out of that city was the agency by which Jehovah expressed his rightful sovereignty toward the earth. It thus constituted a divine block or impediment for Nebuchadnezzar in attaining his goal of world domination. By allowing that typical kingdom at Jerusalem to be overthrown, Jehovah permitted his own visible expression of sovereignty through the Davidic dynasty of kings to be cut down. The expression and exercise of world domination in "the kingdom of mankind," unhindered by any representative kingdom of God, now passed into the hands of the Gentile nations. (La 1:5; 2:2, 16, 17) In the light of these facts "the tree" is seen to represent, beyond and above its application to Nebuchadnezzar, world sovereignty or domination by God's arrangement.
This c&p doesn't help you either. Acknowledging the bigger historical picture Leolaia posted, but still staying within this paradigm, if we're going to apply any 'appointed times of the nations' to the domination of 7th/6th century BCE Jerusalem at all, why not start them from the time they were vassals to Egypt, when Necho deposed Josiah's successor and put his own choice of king on 'God's throne'? (2 Kings 23:30-35)
Or if these 'Gentile times' must begin in Nebuchadnezzar's time, then why not start them from when Nebuchadnezzar hauled Jehoiachin and a huge section of the populace to Babylon while he, like Necho before him, appointed his own choice of king to sit on 'God's throne'? (2 Kings 24:11-17)
Either way, Gentile nations were calling the shots and dominating 'God's representative kingdom' long before Jerusalem was razed to the ground.
Moreover, the illustration of the cedar, the vine and the eagle at Ezek. 17 confirms it was at the greatest deportation, when Jehoiachin was taken, that the cedar-like royal line was lopped, a low vine replacing it (Zedekiah whose line, it turned out, never continued), and thus the kingdom was brought low, "unable to lift itself up" without relying on Babylon (v. 12-14).
Scripturally and historically, therefore (and you've been pointed to lots of evidence), it makes no sense to limit Babylon's full domination of Judah and Jerusalem to the time after Jerusalem's destruction. In fact, the only reason why Jerusalem got destroyed and its king removed was because its king was trying to wriggle free of Babylon's domination by rebelling against it. Had he not done so, Jerusalem wouldn't have been destroyed, and its king would have been allowed to continue, all the while remaining under Babylonian power and authority until, as God prophesied, Babylon's hegemony came to a finish. (Jer. 27:11-13)
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ProdigalSon
An examination of the Bible canon shows that its contents measure up to standards of excellence in every respect.
That's quite comical. I guess that would be the Watchtower standard of excellence. They make the Pharisees look like Archangels.
The Old Testament is filled with excellence like this:
Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
Sex Slaves
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
http://www.evilbible.com/May.htm#May%206
Your god jehovah is a heinous megalomaniac.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread.
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DagothUr
I wonder how they knew who was a virgin and who was not, before they had sex with them.
