Egibi Banking Tablest - of which The Watchtower has never mentioned - why?

by VM44 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Have the thousands of dated contracts and other business documents been criticized?

    Let's discuss - again - the issue of quality of evidence. The closer we are to source, the greater the certainty. Third hand is by definition less reliable and even in our court systems, is usually inadmissable. Volume helps, but is much less important than source and context. That is, you can tell a lie a hundred times but it is not more true. But if multiple witnesses at the same place and time give the same story, you have source and context. It is more reliable. Add in an impersonal videotape, and you have a wrap.

    Furuli may have analysed thousands of documents, but if they came from different sources and were not generated in context with each other, the volume is less important than source and context.

    For the Egebi tablets to be "criticized" are you suggesting that noted archeaeologists somehow:

    1. Deny their existence (they are manufactured fakes)
    2. Inaccurate (bankers kept poor records)
    3. Not what they seem (they are not really banking records and the kings mentioned are fabrications)

    Here is where volume really helps. I can't imagine any self respecting archeologist denying there was an Egebi banking family, that they created thousands of contemporary banking records, and that they were accurate (motive being, accurate payment of debt, not priestly confirmation of king's reigns).

    Egibi Contract

    Excerpt from a translation from one of the tablets, noting the date and King's year. from Transactions of the Society of Biblical Archaeology, Volume 7, published 1882, page 410.

    Note that these documents do not explicitly say when one King's reign starts and another ends. The reigns are sorted out by placing all the contracts in date order.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    In addition, one can track the succession of Egibi company heads officiating all these transactions.

    VM44 gave a Google link to the Boscawen article but I couldn't see inside the linked book containing it, so I hunted down the archive.org version - http://ia600306.us.archive.org//load_djvu_applet.php?file=8/items/transactions06soci/transactions06soci.djvu

    We have to bear in mind that further study and discoveries have come to light since then (e.g. the confusion about Belshazzar's identity is now resolved). However, p. 23f. shows how the company heads' years of service dovetails with Babylonian kings' regnal years (the list Ptolemy used) so that the total of years' service by various company heads coincides with the total of regnal years for Babylonian kings for the same period - there's no disparity between the two figures. Moreover, certain astronomically fixed regnal years provide further landmark points against which to check those figures. There simply is no room to insert an extra 20 years into their business history.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Also the records show WHICH years were intercalated with Addaru II and Ululu II.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Xenophon was hired by the Persians to revise Thucydides, which he did. He made two changes to the Greek timeline:

    1) He added 30 years to the interval between the two wars, making that interval 50 years.

    Original: 403 BCE, 404+20=424 BCE The PPW began in 403 and the Persian War (Xerxes' invasion) took place in 424 BCE, which is proven by eclipse.

    2) He moved the PPW war back in time 28 years from 403 BC to 431 BC, utilizing a solar eclipse that occurred in the 1st year of the Olympic cycle. Thus with the additional 30 years, a 50-year interval redated Xerxes' invasion to 482 BCE.

    431 BCE, 432+50=482 BCE

    But 482 BCE is not an Olympic year and Xerxes' invasion must occur during an Olympic year, so at some point this was adjusted down to 480 BC, so now there are only 48 years interval (exclusive) between the two wars.

    432 + 48 = 480 BCE

    This created a 57 to 58 years distortion in the timeline going back to the time of Nebuchadnezzar II. This is the 57-year discrepancy that is found in the VAT4956 which dates year 37 to both 511 BCE and 568 BCE as a direct result of Xenophon's revisions. But having noted that, any historical references that reflect the shorter relative chronology Neo-Babylonian Period (26 years shorter than Biblical dating for NB Period) or any absolute dating to the revised dates (i.e. VAT4956 dating year 37 to 568 BCE) are all fabricated. Thus any business documents, astronomical texts or historical records or palace histories all had to be revised or destroyed to reflect the new chronology. Even the Jews had to suppress the Books of Daniel and Ezra/Nehemiah for a while, though they replaced it with apocryphal "Esdras" leaving out some of the historical conflict.

    So since the business records of this banking house would have been targeted for destruction, they were simply revised. Since the NB Period was reduced, though, the revision involved removing some of the records, not creating any fake new ones. So these banking tablets by aligning with the revised timeline proves they were revised.

    But if you want to believe these banking tablets and dismiss the Bible's own timeline, which has absolute dating for 1 Cyrus in 455 BCE and a 70-year interval back to the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II, go right ahead and be fooled. There is enough evidence now, especially with the VAT4956 double-dating to prove not only the manipulation and revision of astronomical texts and history but also to establish the original dating. How much of a coincidence do you expect us to believe if the VAT4956 shows 511 BCE as year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar, and when you date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE it also shows the very same dating? Are we to presume there is zero connection between the two? No way! This is more than a lack of contradiction, this is a confirmation of the true original timeline; not that we don't know about Xenophon's revisions to the Greek timeline now. This is past any "choice" option, this is simply incompetent or dishonest at this point.

    Anyway, if you choose to accept the Bible as true history you have to dismiss the Egibi tablets are being revised, and why wouldn't they be?

    LS

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Hi Ann:

    We have to bear in mind that further study and discoveries have come to light since then (e.g. the confusion about Belshazzar's identity is now resolved). However, p. 23f. shows how the company heads' years of service dovetails with Babylonian kings' regnal years (the list Ptolemy used) so that the total of years' service by various company heads coincides with the total of regnal years for Babylonian kings for the same period - there's no disparity between the two figures. Moreover, certain astronomically fixed regnal years provide further landmark points against which to check those figures. There simply is no room to insert an extra 20 years into their business history.

    Simply referencing surviving revised documents doesn't prove anything but what the revisionists intended. If you want to take the word of these revised records or the Bible, then that's your choice. But know for certain the Bible's own critical timeline is clearly established now. 455 BCE has to begin the "70 weeks" in the 1st of Cyrus. To that we add 70 years back to the last deportation, year 23 of Neb2. That means year 37 falls in 511 BCE as confirmed by the VAT4956, and year 7 falls in 541 BCE as confirmed by the SK400. We use the 709 BCE eclipse to date the Assyrian Period and Shishak's invasion to c. 871 BCE, which is precisely where the C14 dating from Rehov for that event is dated. This falls in year 39 of Solomon so his 4th year falls in 906 BCE, making the Exodus fall in 1386 BCE. The Exodus is exactly 19 jubilees prior to the jubilee of the return of the Jews from Babylon in 455 BCE, thus...

    19 x 49 = 931

    1386 - 931 = 455 BCE

    Of course, the entire week of jubilees, a period of 70 jubilees or 3430 years must celebrate the 70th jubilee in connection with the final return from exile, which occurs in 1947. That means the entire 70 jubilees ends in 1996 and begins in 1435 BCE. The Exodus is the first jubilee and thus occurs in 1386 BCE.

    So now, since 1947, we can date the return to 455 BCE and the Exodus to 1386 BCE per Bible chronology. So if you don't have these dates, whether or not you use secular references for major events, you can't claim these are Biblical dates. If you are not using these dates, you are not using the official Biblical timeline, whether you believe the Bible's dates are right or wrong.

    Of course, it should be obvious that the promised messiah returns to fulfil the 70th week of 490 years, but also the 490th week of 3430 years, and the 7th week of the last 49 years. Thus the messiah must return, obviously during th e70th week of 1989-1996. Otherwise, the Bible is not true. Of course, I'm in a position to confirm this is precisely what took place. Christ returned to human form on December 25, 1992.

    LS

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    For the Egebi tablets to be "criticized" are you suggesting that noted archeaeologists somehow:

    1. Deny their existence (they are manufactured fakes)
    2. Inaccurate (bankers kept poor records)
    3. Not what they seem (they are not really banking records and the kings mentioned are fabrications)

    Interestingly, it makes a difference when you know precisely what happened. 26 years were removed from the Neo-Babylonian kings and added to the Persian timeline during the reign of Darius I, who only ruled 6 years (not 36 years) per the bible (Ezra 6:14,15). So any kind of tablets or histories that did not reflect the reduced NB timeline would have been targets for destruction or revision, and then left as records for the Greeks to find and be fooled into thinking the shorter NB Period was authentic. So what was involved was not manufacturing a lot of fake tablets, but removing critical tablets from certain years as follows:

    A) 2 years from Nebuchadnezzar II, years 44 and 45. Neb2 ruled for 45 years not 43 years.

    B) 16 years from Ewil-Merodach who ruled 18 years originally, which even Josephus records in Antiquities. So years 3 through 18 would be removed.

    C) 2 years from Nabonidus who ruled 19 years, reduced to 17. Years 18 and 19 would be removed.

    D) The entire 6-year rule of Darius the Mede was removed.

    This was required to cover up for the reduced Neo-Babylonian Period. All palace records and as well business records would have to be revised as well. So any records reflecting the shortened NB Period, as I noted, automatically are recognized as revised documents.

    LS

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    I just wanted to add that you have to consider the extensive measures that were taken to make the revised timeline authentic. Case in point are the tombs at Naqshi-Rustam. Xerxes had faked his own death and claimed to be Artaxerxes. But when he died he was bured in tomb #2 next to Darius I. So we know Artaxerxes succeeded Darius I. After that was buried Darius II. But with the claim that Xerxes was the father of Artaxerxes, it was very obvious from the tombs that Xerxes was skipped. So they dug out another tomb at Naqshi-Rustam. The first three were facing the same direction. Xerxes' new tomb is lower and facing another direction. But he's buried out of place. That's rather drastic.

    Or you can consider the astronomical texts. After Xenophon's last revision, apparently some attention during the time of Berossus was paid to the thousands of astronomical texts from the time of Nebuchadnezzar II. Remember, we have thousands of business records from the time of Nebuchadnezzar but no surviving astronomical texts. We know they were extensive because "copies" like the VAT4956 gives us nearly daily recorded observations of several planets, the moon and sun! Where are those thousands of astronomical texts? They are no where to be found.

    Even so, we know because some astronomical texts, which were discovered by Ptolemy represent the revised timeline. Thus astronomical texts were revised as well. But if you compare the lunar times in the VAT4956 as well as certain star names, you find that later astronomical texts attempted to revise lunar times and locations as well! That's extensive. The logical reason for doing so would be to authenticate some original astronomical observations that coincidentally fit with the revised timeline.

    For instance, in year 2 of Nabonidus was a lunar eclipse that took place in month 6. It was a total lunar eclipse that was near the end of totality just before moonset. This caused a panic and Nabonidus sacrificed his daughter to the Moon god. Basically, they saw the moon turn to blood and then set before turning back. That is the context of the original event in 479 BCE. When the revision of the NB Period was made, year 2 of Nabonidus fell in 554 BCE where coincidentally there was a lunar eclipse that occurred in month 6. The only problem was that the eclipse timing was such that it was not in progress at moonset. But also coincidentally, another eclipse event that got dated to year 7 of Kambyses falling in 523 BCE was an ideal substitute for an eclipse 18 years earlier that fell in year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar, 541 BCE, based on the original dating. But this eclipse originally occurred one hour before midnight. It turned out though that if you adjusted the lunar time of the eclipse in the Nabon 18 for the 2nd of Nabonidus so that it was in progress at moonset, the 523 BCE eclipse could be timed to 1 hour before midnight! So if you changed the lunar times for one, you could have both references work. To help cover for this, the star called the "Rear Foot of the Lion" (GIR ar sa UR-A) was switched from sigma-Leonis to beta-Virginis which makes up for those approximate 16 hours revision of the lunar times. They then made thousands of new tablets using their best predictions for future eclipses that reflected the 16-hour difference. Thing is, though, this occurred after the VAT4956 was created which still referenced the original lunar times and positions. That's why astro programs reflecting on the revised lunar times shows this descrepancy in line 8 of the VAT4956.

    Point being, a lot of detailed effort went into authenticating the new chronology at every possible level, from business documents, to astronomical texts, to building inscriptions and all kinds of historical records. So what we have is a well documented revised timeline with few critical surviving documents from the original timeline other than double-dated texts like the SK400 and the VAT4956 that confirm the original chronology.

    So again, if any tablets or business documents would have given the revisions away, then they would have been changed or destroyed. Since these tablets reflect the reduced NB timeline, we can confirm they were revised as well.

    But, it is not a matter of dismissing these documents as revised or not as much as establishing that they contradict the Bible's own chronology. That is, the relative chronology of the tablets reflect a 26-year shorter NB Period than does Josephus or the Bible. That means either the Jews revised their records or the pagans revised theirs. You have to decide which one revised. The smart choice is the Bible, of course. The Bible inserts 70 years between year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II and the 1st of Cyrus and confirms that the successor to Darius I in his 6th year was Artaxerxes, Longimanus, who was first known as Xerxes. If you haven't dismissed that or tried to confirm it, then you'll never get the timeline correct.

    LS

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    @ Lars

    Lovely spaaaam, wonderful spaaaam!

  • VM44
    VM44

    "So since the business records of this banking house would have been targeted for destruction, they were simply revised."

    This would involve creating new tablets. The work involved would be rewriting the text on new clay tablets and then baking them.

    The amount of work involved would be immense to change 100's or 1,000's of records.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Hi Ann

    @ Lars

    Lovely spaaaam, wonderful spaaaam!

    Haaaaa. Sorry, I know you wish it were spam but it's not. This is fundamentalism. The 455 BCE dating is part of Martin Anstey's conclusion and dating from his 1913 "Romance of Bible Chronology." He determined from the Bible there were 82 years of "spam" Persian chronology. So that's a Biblical interpretation just as valid as any other claim of chronology, as the WTS' claim about 607 BCE. It's a premise you have to compare with evereything else. So is Martin Anstey "spam"?

    Josephus is the one who claims there were 70 years from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus. That's a legitimate Jewish customary and traditional interpretation of the 70 years. So that has to be investigated and compared with the Bible. That's not spam, that's an actual secular reference, whether you find it easy to dismiss Josephus or not. Where did he come up with that interpretation? This is Jewish history.

    Of course, you also have the VAT4956 with its two "errors" which you like to think of as being "scriabal errors" which is a joke because the scribes didn't invent and fill text just to fill in the space. If the tablet was broken, they noted it. These two references though are too specific to be guesses from the same year, which fits 511 BCE. 511 BCE, though is a Biblical date for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II when the 1st of Cyrus falls in 455 BCE, which is the absolute correct interpretation. That's when Jerusalem began to be rebuilt.

    So it boils down to the academic world thinking the Jews must have revised their chronology and history but the pagans were so honest, we can rely on them? Please. Everybody revised their history, including the Jews (i.e. apocryphal "Esdras", Book of Esther).

    But you wanna know what true spam is? It is when you claim someone like Plato is consulted 2 years before he is born. That's what the current chronology stands on--contradictions like that. Plato's younger brother Glaucon served in the 7th year of the war now dated to 424 BCE. He couldn't have been born prior to 427 BCE, so you have a 3-year old serving in the war. That is the current chronology you think the Egibi tablets substantiate. So it is not me to believes in spam but YOU. You're the one that thinks it is perfectly natural for someone to be consulted 2 years before they were born, not me.

    Anyway, it is fun to discuss these things! Olof Jonsson tries to tell us the 70 years was based on Babylonian captivity of the nations while ignoring Josephus' 70 years interpretation. It doesn't work that way. That is true "spam".

    Of course, that's the best you can do since you have no specific rebuttal, though you will be claiming you effectively dismissed all my evidence, as usual, when no such thing is possible. Anyway, thanks for the compliment.

    Let me know when you are ready to agree to disagree!!! tee hee

    LS

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit