Inviting djeggnog to discuss the blood doctrine

by jgnat 317 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    djeggnog said: If God put animal blood to be sprinkled on His altar to representatively atone for the sins of human beings, where's the logic in God's allowing human blood
    to be sprinkled on His altar (or, in this case, transfused onto someone else's altar when animal blood and human blood belong to God!) when this animal blood foreshadowed
    the perfect human sacrifice of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world?.....DjEggNogg

    OMG.....Outlaw, I believe egghead's above comment tops his previous post for sheer stupidity. The blood that was used to 'sprinkle on the altar',

    was to make atonement for the life that had just been taken.....Mary

    Good Morning Mary..

    DjEggSpert clearly has No Grasp of why the Animal was Bled..

    It was an Atonement,for taking the Life of the Animal..

    How he works Humans and Jesus into the Equation is Ridiculous..

    http://i1.ytimg.com/i/hpFjPH-3fuEOW-HQAfYD-w/1.jpg?v=67baa2

    DjeniusEggSpert

    "Bla-Bla-Bla..I went to the Library and found whatever I could,to support the WatchTower..Now I`m an Expert"..

    LOL!!..

    Then he writes this Ironic Gem..

    Someone once said it's better to be silent and thought a fool -- not that I'm saying that you're a fool

    --than to speak and remove all doubt.....DjEggNogg

    A Pearl of Wisdom for DjeniusEggSpert..

    That's a Poorly Done..Quote from Mark Twain..

    From Wikipedia

    Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30, 1835 – April 21, 1910), [1] better known by his pen nameMark Twain,

    was an American author and humorist. He is noted for his novels

    Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (1885), called "the Great American Novel", and The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (1876).

    .......................... ...OUTLAW

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    garyneal: I find it sad that we even have to have this discussion to begin with.

    djeggnog: Why? You clearly are out of your depth as are most folks that criticize Jehovah's Witnesses for doing something that we have always been able to do, but wasn't such a big deal until the last 15 years or so. No one called these "blood fractions," even though this is what they were.

    Don't know if it wasn't such a big deal or not up until the last 15 years of so. As to the reason why I find it sad, it is because doctors are not being permitted to do what is necessary to help keep people alive. I guess it would not be such a big deal were it not for the reports of Jehovah's Witnesses being 'secretly' relieved when the doctor gets a court order that overrides a parents choice on this matter. If I am 'out of my depth,' I would imagine that most Jehovah's Witnesses are in the same boat. Why do they need a Hospital Liason Committee to intervene on behalf of Jehovah's Witnesses everywhere? That's a legal liability if I ever saw one.

    Methane is a component of natural gas (the other six (6) components are thane, propane, butane, pentane, hexane, heptanes) and gasoline in a component of crude oil, but plastics that come from crude oil/natural gas would be a fraction since it is a byproduct of crude oil. It is no longer crude oil and it cannot be used as fuel. The same thing is true about blood fractions, which are a byproduct of one of the four components of whole blood. Because these fractions are no longer blood, and are no longer resemble the blood components from which they are derived, Jehovah's Witnesses may use such blood fractions.

    Then how come Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to donate blood so that its fractions may be used to help other Jehovah's Witnesses?

    garyneal: If the Society wishes to argue that abstaining from blood is 'better medicine' because it helps people avoid blood born pathogens, then it would follow that those pathogens could also be contracted from blood fractions.

    djeggnog: No, it doesn't. What you just said is ridiculous.

    How so? Perhaps I am ignorant on this but from my understanding on viruses (such as HIV), they are much much smaller than cells. How can 'blood fractions' be extracted from blood that is infected with (say) HIV while ensuring that none of the virus is present in the blood fractions. Again, maybe I am ignorant of the extraction process, so please enlighten me.

    garyneal: Too many lives have been lost defending this doctrine to just all of a sudden rescind it.

    djeggnog: Jehovah's Witnesses have rescinded nothing.

    Tell that to the people who lost loved ones who refused organ transplants or vaccinations that could've save their lives before the Watchtower 'rescinded' their bans on these options. I don't have time to research it right now, but I am sure that there are cases of witnesses who also lost their lives when a (now) permitted 'blood fraction' could've saved it during the time when these 'blood fractions' were not permitted.

    garyneal: Sadly, far too many witnesses are too captive of the concept that the GB speaks for God to even dare question it.

    djeggnog: The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses does not speak for God. You people here on JWN repeat this mantra over and over again and bash our governing body, and for what reason? Envy? NoOne is your god and you are always seeking to do NoOne's will. NoOne is the god of your own selfish desires, and you will say anything, do anything, to please your god. I get it. Like my God, Jehovah, NoOne cannot be seen, but not like my God, the true God, NoOne is a false god and cannot save you, cannot save anyone. Just as you speak for your god, I speak for my God.

    I can see this is deteriorating into a rant. I'll just respond with this:

    Fear has a great hold on the people. People are afraid of what their neighbors, their friends, relatives and clergy might think if they were even so much as to read the Bible on their own. For centuries the clergy have dominated their lives, told them what they can read, what they should believe and do. To ask a sound religious question is a demonstration of lack of faith in God and the church, according to the clergy. As a result, the Irish people do very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear; but freedom is in sight. [The Watchtower, August 1, 1958, p. 460]

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    djeggnogg writes:

    What might this phrase mean?

    o abstain from alcohol

    - abstain from kicking alcohol

    - abstain from burning alcohol

    - abstain from criticizing alcohol

    - abstain from mocking alcohol

    - abstain from bashing alcohol

    - abstain from eating alcohol

    - abstain from drinking alcohol

    Which of these would seem appropriate to you?

    It would depend on why a person is told to abstain from alcohol.

    Getting a buzz versus saving a life

    If a person is told to abstain from alcohol because they are an alcoholic then oral or intravenous administration of alcohol would be inappropriate for the purpose of getting a buzz.

    On the other hand,

    If a person is told to abstain from alcohol because they are an alcoholic this would not preclude oral or intravenous administration of alcohol to treat the life threatening condition of ethyl glycol poisoning.

    Sacred property

    If a person it told to abstain from alcohol because it belongs to someone else and on top of that it is a sacred substance then using from that alcohol for any reason would be inappropriate because it would be theft by conversion, and on top of that it would be theft by conversion of a sacred substance.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Djeggnog,

    I repeat my question from two days ago:

    Introduction:

    Watchtower doctrine prohibits the conscientious acceptance of plasma. If a Witness does conscientiously accept transfusion of plasma they are, as a result, subject to repercussion of Watchtower’s organized communal shunning policy known as disassociation (prior to year 2000 the term disfellowshipping was applied in these cases).

    Watchtower doctrine does not prohibit the conscientious acceptance of cryosupernatant and cryoprecipitate. If a Witness does conscientiously accept transfusion of these blood products they are not, as a result, subject to repercussion of Watchtower’s organized communal shunning policy known as disassociation. Rather, other Witnesses are expected to respect the conscientious choice made by the individual who accepted these blood products.

    Cryoprecipitate is rendered from a unit of plasma. The leftover of this rendering is cryosupernatant. These two blood products are the sum total of the original plasma unit. If you want to have the original plasma unit, all you have to do is place the cryoprecipitate back into the cryosupernatant.

    My question:

    What biblical statement tells us that Christians should react differently to a fellow believer accepting transfusion of plasma versus accepting transfusion of cryosupernatant and cryoprecipitate? If both the latter are going to be transfused and it is acceptable to fellow believers then why pay someone to dismantle what you are only putting back together by transfusion?

    Marvin Shilmer

  • palmtree67
    palmtree67

    eggnog:

    I'm privy to God's spirit. I have it in abundance and whenever I speak -- even if I'm being silly -- it is always with me, which is why my speech is "wholesome" most of the time -- notice how I qualified this wholesomeness, because sometimes I slip -- or to use another spiritual word, "healthful." (Titus 2:1, 8)

    One question for you: Let's say the WT completely reverses it's stand on blood tomorrow. All the reasons they've given for avoiding blood transfusion are now out the window, and now NEW reasons are given for why it's acceptable.

    ( This is not far-fetched.....they did this with the disfellowshipping doctrine.......printed an article outlining all the "scriptural" reasons why it was WRONG and later reversed the decision, printing an article outlining all the reasons it was now RIGHT.....Gee, seems like the Bible can be worked to fit WHATEVER doctrine you want to enforce......)

    How would you feel about that? How would you feel about all the information and arguements you've spouted here?

  • Mary
    Mary

    Like I said palmtree; egghead would do what most Witnesses do under such circumstances: He'd try minimizing the change, develop selective amnesia and try putting it all down to "Noo Lite"......

    eggnog said: Can you imagine transfusing animal blood into a human being?
    jgnat replied: I don't have to imagine it; it is being done. It's called Hemopure, and is one of the approved manufactured blood substitutes by the Society. Animal blood transfusion was also tried in the early history of transfusion.

    I'd love to see eggnog's response to that one jgnat. Good one.

  • JW GoneBad
    JW GoneBad

    djeggnog said in reply to justnfrombethel: 'Someone once said it's better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.'

    Someone else once said........ 'if the shoe fits wear it'.

    Keep talking djeggnog!

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    http://i1.ytimg.com/i/hpFjPH-3fuEOW-HQAfYD-w/1.jpg?v=67baa2

    DjeniusEggSpert

    DjEggnog said: Can you imagine transfusing animal blood into a human being?

    Jgnat

    jgnat replied: I don't have to imagine it; it is being done. It's called Hemopure, and is one of the approved manufactured blood substitutes by the Society.
    Animal blood transfusion was also tried in the early history of transfusion.

    Hemopure is made from WBT$ Approved Cow Blood..

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/102484792_6b14429547_m.jpghttp://www.anestesiologia.com.br/images/artigos/ANESTESIOLOGIA_78197.gif

    It helps JW Cattle understand "WBT$ New Light"..

    ....................... ...OUTLAW

  • TD
    TD

    djeggnog,

    We know exactly what drug was responsible. It was not quinine, but if you've researched cases of thrombocytopenia caused by quinine, you understand the situation. The list of drugs that can produce this side-effect gets longer every year.

    And this is the problem. As I view it, you do not view blood as being sacred. You see no problem with re-use of it as blood. I do.

    What I'm trying to understand is why you have a problem with all reuses of blood. It would help if we could distill it down into a simple deductive argument

    You gave me several multiple choice examples illustrating the most reasonable act we could infer from an "abstain from" construction. I'm not going to cut, paste and answer them all (Unless you think it's important) because I agree with you. They illustrate the point I've been attempting to make

    For example, you said:

    Now try alcohol, meaning the beverage, just like there as there aren't two kinds of blood, one for consumption and one for topical use, and tell me: What might this phrase mean?

    As long as it's clearly understood that we're talking about beverages containing alcohol (i.e. A food) then "eating" and/or "drinking" are what a normal person would understand a directive to abstain from alcohol to prohibit. The context clearly limits the scope of the proscription

    Sure it does. This was originally Greek and what James said at Acts 15:20 was translated into English and this phrase "abstain .... from blood" doesn't require a verb at all. He's entitled to his opinion, as are you, but we're just playing tiddly winks, aren't we, @TD?
    He uses the phrase "abstain from paint" to make a different point; it's a useless strawman to prop up what he argues here about the need for "a verb of some kind ... to complete the thought": His thought.

    I think it's important not to confuse semantics with grammar. In English a complete proposition requires a transfer of action between subject and object. "Abstain" is an intransitive verb and can neither take a direct object nor transfer action between subject in object.

    You could argue that semantically the meaning is still clear even without a finite verb, but grammatically, there is no question that the phrase, "Abstain..from blood" is incomplete. If it were grammatically complete, it wouldn't be a phrase at all, it would be a clause.

    I've enjoyed having a good discussion, but maybe we're reaching an impasse on this one point. If we agree that the reference to blood in the Decree was a reference to earlier injunctions against drinking/eating it, then there's no need to discuss grammar at all.

    You read Greek and I believe you have a good understanding of nouns and verbs, so maybe I could get you to analyze "abstain from foods" (1 Timothy 4:3) as you did "abstain ... from blood" (Acts 15:20), and hear what you have concluded as to difference between "foods" and "blood."

    The word choice is slightly different, but given the fact that blood is forbidden in the Bible as a food, I would say that the reference to eating/drinking is nearly identical.

    Would it be fair to say that you see an equivalency of some sort between the consumption of blood and the transfusion of blood? If you do, I'd be curious what the equivalency is and how it can be logically established

  • Listener
    Listener

    Is it correct that the GB is able to determine that each of the four components of blood seperately hold the life giving properties that are held sacred but none of the fractions do?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit