Why you should not worry about Japan's nuclear reactor problems.

by beatthesystem 56 Replies latest social current

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Thetrueone:

    It is said that even if there was a tragic nuclear melt down of these reactors the prevailing damage would be dramatically less than the Chernobyl accident, due to the design difference of the plants themselves.

    That's what I thought at first, but I was wrong. The difference between the two types of reactors is that the better designed one is much less likely to have an accident. When the better designed reactor does have a complete failure, it can be just as bad in its consequences than the inferior design.

    All the multiple redundancy of the Japanese reactors failed miserably; in the wake of an earthquake that was much more powerful than it was designed to withstand in combination with a tsunami.

    Villabolo

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    :

    "Well, we're thinking of changing plans and go to Kyushu instead of Tokyo...that's over 800 miles away from the Fukushima, about the same distance between where I live in the Bay Area and Vancouver, British Columbia. Not just because of the radiation issue but because Kyushu is relatively unaffected by the catastrophe. Only thing is that there is now a volcano erupting there."

    Good. Perhaps if the one the Japanese legends refer to as "Reoraia" sacrifices a leather bound NWT into the mouth of the volcano, the curse will be taken away.

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Glander jokes:

    My motto is - Be Prepared!

    The pro-nuclear gang of JWN

    Villabolo

  • beatthesystem
    beatthesystem

    http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/03/new-york-times-us-navy-helicopter.html

    Monday, March 14, 2011

    New York Times: US Navy Helicopter Exposed to Radiation

    This almost sounds scary, but I have a feeling that when the details omitted in the article emerge from the Navy it will not be as scary as the New York Times article suggests.

    The Pentagon was expected to announce that the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan, which is sailing in the Pacific, passed through a radioactive cloud from stricken nuclear reactors in Japan, causing crew members on deck to receive a month’s worth of radiation in about an hour, government officials said Sunday.

    The officials added that American helicopters flying missions about 60 miles north of the damaged reactors became coated with particulate radiation that had to be washed off.
    The key detail missing in all of these stories is the levels of radiation being detected measured in micro sievert (mSv). Instead of using the popular media comparison of average over a year, lets use the example of a CT scan which runs about 2,000 - 2,200 micro sieverts in one use.

    As best we have been informed to date, the radiation levels at the Fukushima power plant run about 100 to 1,200 microsieverts per hour, and have peaked around the time of the explosions. While you can read the New York Times article and be alarmed, I actually quoted the safety measure necessary for this radiation exposure from the article - wash it off.

    According to various news reports, the maximum level detected so far around the Fukushima plant is 1,557.5 micro sievert logged Sunday. In the open atmosphere, this number would drop considerably due to disipation. We will likely learn details of the Navy exposure and remedy taken, and I do think the Navy will take an abundance of caution, but if the Navy is smart they will also use this opportunity to educate regarding nuclear power - since the Navy is an organization with many thousands of nuclear specialists.

    The New York Times article goes on to say this:
    The plume issue has arisen before. In 1986, radiation spewing from the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine was spread around the globe on winds and reached the West Coast in 10 days. It was judged more of a curiosity than a threat.
    The comparison to Chernobyl remains popular, but is also good way to identify if someone talking about Fukushima knows what they hell they are talking about. If someone suggests any comparison between the two based on the current data, they are an idiot - not an expert.

    Here is how to put Fukushima in the context of Chernobyl. The radiation levels at Chernobyl were of the order of 30,000 roentgens per hour near the plant.

    30,000 roentgens is 3,579 sieverts. One million micro sieverts to one sievert. Doing a little quick math, if we are comparing the magnitude of radiation levels coming from 'meltdown' at the Fukushima power plant to the 'meltdown' at Chernobyl we get 1 / 3,579,000

    Again, doing the math, a relative comparison suggests Fukushima is 0.00002% of the Chernobyl levels of radiation. These 'meltdowns' have nothing in common, unless you believe .000002% - below the mSv of a CT scan - is a public health threat.

    For the record, 7th Fleet is repositioning ships after the contamination detection. This is a wise precaution, because as many have pointed out, it is one thing to trust the Japanese numbers but it is more important to verify them.

    Updated :

    The New York Times has already followed up with another article on the topic. 17 Navy personnel were exposed to radiation according to the report.
    Cmdr. Jeff A. Davis, a spokesman for the American Seventh Fleet in Japan, said the Navy personnel — who apparently had flown through a radioactive plume from a damaged nuclear power plant — had been ordered to dispose of their uniforms and to undergo a decontamination scrub that had successfully removed radioactive particles.

    “They received very, very low levels of contamination,” Commander Davis said in a telephone interview from Japan early Monday.

    “It certainly is not cause for alarm,” he said. “It is something we have to watch very carefully and make sure we are able to monitor, and to mitigate against this environmental hazard.”
    Like I said, the Navy will take an abundance of caution dealing with this issue. You do not discuss nuclear power without also discussing safety. I also note that on the nuclear powered USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76), the detection systems for radiation are very good.

    I once read an article that suggested the US Navy has more nuclear trained engineers than the Department of Energy. I don't know if that is actually true, but I do know that there are probably hundreds of nuclear trained US Navy readers who visit here daily and if I get something wrong regarding nuclear issues - I am going to get a hurricane of email and comments that will highlight my mistakes.
  • beatthesystem
    beatthesystem

    A bit more info for those that are interested:

    http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2011/03/american-nuclear-society-backgrounder.html

    Monday, March 14, 2011

    American Nuclear Society Backgrounder on Japan
    Below is some outstanding information from the American Nuclear Society on the Japanese nuclear challenges. Excellent reading.
    American Nuclear Society Backgrounder:
    Japanese Earthquake/Tsunami; Problems with Nuclear Reactors
    3/12/2011 5:22 PM EST
    To begin, a sense of perspective is needed… right now, the Japanese earthquake/tsunami is clearly a catastrophe; the situation at impacted nuclear reactors is, in the words of IAEA, an "Accident with Local Consequences."

    The Japanese earthquake and tsunami are natural catastrophes of historic proportions. The death toll is likely to be in the thousands. While the information is still not complete at this time, the tragic loss of life and destruction caused by the earthquake and tsunami will likely dwarf the damage caused by the problems associated with the impacted Japanese nuclear plants.


    What happened?

    Recognizing that information is still not complete due to the destruction of the communication infrastructure, producing reports that are conflicting, here is our best understanding of the sequence of events at the Fukushima I-1 power station.
    • The plant was immediately shut down (scrammed) when the earthquake first hit. The automatic power system worked.
    • All external power to the station was lost when the sea water swept away the power lines.
    • Diesel generators started to provide backup electrical power to the plant’s backup cooling system. The backup worked.
    • The diesel generators ceased functioning after approximately one hour due to tsunami induced damage, reportedly to their fuel supply.
    • An Isolation condenser was used to remove the decay heat from the shutdown reactor.
    • Apparently the plant then experienced a small loss of coolant from the reactor.
    • Reactor Core Isolation Cooling (RCIC) pumps, which operate on steam from the reactor, were used to replace reactor core water inventory, however, the battery-supplied control valves lost DC power after the prolonged use.
    • DC power from batteries was consumed after approximately 8 hours.
    • At that point, the plant experienced a complete blackout (no electric power at all).
    • Hours passed as primary water inventory was lost and core degradation occurred (through some combination of zirconium oxidation and clad failure).
    • Portable diesel generators were delivered to the plant site.
    • AC power was restored allowing for a different backup pumping system to replace inventory in reactor pressure vessel (RPV).
    • Pressure in the containment drywell rose as wetwell became hotter.
    • The Drywell containment was vented to outside reactor building which surrounds the containment.
    • Hydrogen produced from zirconium oxidation was vented from the containment into the reactor building.
    • Hydrogen in reactor building exploded causing it to collapse around the containment.
    • The containment around the reactor and RPV were reported to be intact.
    • The decision was made to inject seawater into the RPV to continue to the cooling process, another backup system that was designed into the plant from inception.
    • Radioactivity releases from operator initiated venting appear to be decreasing.


    Can it happen here in the US?

    • While there are risks associated with operating nuclear plants and other industrial facilities, the chances of an adverse event similar to what happened in Japan occurring in the US is small.
    • Since September 11, 2001, additional safeguards and training have been put in place at US nuclear reactors which allow plant operators to cool the reactor core during an extended power outage and/or failure of backup generators – “blackout conditions.”


    Is a nuclear reactor "meltdown" a catastrophic event?

    • Not necessarily. Nuclear reactors are built with redundant safety systems. Even if the fuel in the reactor melts, the reactor's containment systems are designed to prevent the spread of radioactivity into the environment. Should an event like this occur, containing the radioactive materials could actually be considered a "success" given the scale of this natural disaster that had not been considered in the original design. The nuclear power industry will learn from this event, and redesign our facilities as needed to make them safer in the future.


    What is the ANS doing?

    ANS has reached out to The Atomic Energy Society of Japan (AESJ) to offer technical assistance.

    ANS has established an incident communications response team. This team has compiling relevant news reports and other publicly available information on the ANS blog, which can be found atansnuclearcafe.org.

    The team is also fielding media inquiries and providing reporters with background information and technical perspective as the events unfold. Finally, the ANS is collecting information from publicly available sources, our sources in government
    agencies, and our sources on the ground in Japan, to better understand the extent and impact of the incident.
  • Curtains
    Curtains

    thanks beatthesystem - scientists over here are saying basically the same thing. Although I note on the evening news that the US are expressing doubt that the Japanese are telling us the whole truth. Time will tell

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter

    Here is a good explanation of the situation, given in Toronto today by Duncan Hawthorne. He is the head of Bruce Power, operators of eight CANDU reactors.

    youtube

  • freydo
    freydo

    TODAY ON THE ALEX JONES SHOW

    • Radiation threat

    Red Alert: Alex talks about nuclear radiation reaching Alaska and the threat the U.S. faces from the Fukushima nuclear catastrophe. He also talks with New York Times-bestselling author and journalist for the British Broadcasting Corporation, Greg Palast. He is also a former lead investigator in several government nuclear plant fraud and racketeering investigations and wrote recently about how Obama administration wants Congress to provide a $4 billion loan guarantee for two new nuclear reactors on the Gulf Coast of Texas. Mike Adams, the Health Ranger, will also be in-studio. Alex also takes your calls and covers other important news.

    Listen nowListen Now Windows MediaWindows Media PodcastPodcast

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Beatthesystem:

    The comparison to Chernobyl remains popular, but is also good way to identify if someone talking about Fukushima knows what they hell they are talking about. If someone suggests any comparison between the two based on the current data, they are an idiot - not an expert.

    The article you cited was talking about the situation between Chernobyl at its WORSE compared to the CURRENT situation in Japan. The gravity of a meltdown in the future is not mentioned. If those reactors were to melt down THEN it's obvious that it will be much worse than the present situation.. Whether such an event approaches, equals or exceeds Chernobyl cannot be ascertained at this moment.

    Furthermore, The report you cited is outdated. Please note the date:

    Things are changing quickly. I suggest, that once you're done reading the French report, you read the following report FROM YOUR OWN SOURCE, FIVE DAYS LATER. Pay attention to the highlighted text.

    But first, here is someone who can determine what the current situation is like. This report is only one day old:

    French nuclear agency now rates Japan accident at 6

    PARIS | Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:46am EDT

    On Monday, the ASN had rated the ongoing accident at the plant, located 240 km (150 miles) north of Tokyo, as a five or six.

    Level seven was used only once, for Chernobyl in Ukraine in 1986. The 1979 accident at the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant in the United States was rated a level five.

    "We are now in a situation that is different from yesterday's. It is very clear that we are at a level six, which is an intermediate level between what happened at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl," ASN President Andre-Claude Lacoste told a news conference in Paris on Tuesday.

    "We are clearly in a catastrophe," Lacoste added, citing the deterioration of the containment structure at Daiichi 2 as one of the key elements supporting the ASN's more pessimistic assessment.

    Two reactors exploded on Tuesday at the Fukushima Daiichi plant after days of frantic efforts to cool them.

    Japan, which rated the accident a four on Saturday, is under global scrutiny over its handling of a nuclear crisis triggered by a huge earthquake and tsunami that crippled three reactors and raised fears of an uncontrolled radiation leak.

    Thursday, March 17, 2011

    Message to American Citizens from Ambassador to Japan John V. Roos

    Thursday, March 17, 2011

    The United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC), the Department of Energy and other technical experts in the U.S. Government have reviewed the scientific and technical information they have collected from assets in country, as well as what the Government of Japan has disseminated, in response to the deteriorating situation at the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant. Consistent with the NRC guidelines that apply to such a situation in the United States, we are recommending, as a precaution, that American citizens who live within 50 miles (80 kilometers) of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant evacuate the area or to take shelter indoors if safe evacuation is not practical. We want to underscore that there are numerous factors in the aftermath of the earthquake and tsunami, including weather, wind direction and speed, and the nature of the reactor problem that affect the risk of radioactive contamination within this 50 mile (80 km) radius or the possibility of lower-level radioactive materials reaching greater distances.

    The U.S. Embassy will continue to update American citizens as the situation develops. U.S. citizens in need of emergency assistance should send an e-mail to [email protected] with detailed information about their location and contact information, and monitor the U.S. Department of State website at travel.state.gov.

    The United States is continuing to do everything in its power to help Japan and American citizens who were there at the time of these tragic events. To support our citizens there, the Embassy is working around the clock. We have our consular services available 24 hours a day to determine the whereabouts and well-being of all U.S. citizens in Japan and we have offered our Japanese friends assistance, including disaster response experts, search and rescue teams, technical advisers with nuclear expertise, and logistical support from the United States military.

    Comment:

    I'm curious what people think. We are clearly sending a message that is different than the government of Japan, who insists 12.5 miles (20km) is the appropriate evacuation zone. Whether this undermines Japanese government statements about the risk of radiation and fallout is entirely up to how the Japanese interpret the meaning of the difference in opinions between the US and Japanese government.

    Is this the US government being abundantly cautious in protecting US citizens? Is this the US being paranoid? I personally believe it is the responsibility of governments to make independent assessments based on the facts as they know it, and in this case I believe the Obama administration is taking a prudent and responsible action that they believe will protect the lives of US citizens.
    I am curious how others see it though.

    Now let me emphasise the important points. ". . .deteriorating situation at the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant."

    And also,

    "Is this the US being paranoid? . . . I believe the Obama administration is taking a prudent and responsible action that they believe will protect the lives of US citizens."By the way, in contrast to what your outdated article stated on 3/12/2011 5:22 PM EST:

    One reactor is now breached, and was venting much larger amounts of radioactivity just two days after your outdated report:

    15 March 2011 Last updated at 13:50

    Aerial view of Fukushima Daiichi's reactor 3

    A third explosion at the site appears to have damaged reactor 2's containment

    It appears that for the first time, the containment system around one of the Fukushima Daiichi reactors has been breached.

    Officials have referred to a possible crack in the suppression chamber of reactor 2 - a large doughnut-shaped structure, also known as the torus, below the reactor housing.

    That would allow steam, containing radioactive substances, to escape continuously.

    This is the most likely source of the high radioactivity readings seen near the site in the middle of Tuesday.

    I strongly suggest, BTS, that you keep abreast on THE LATEST situation. That means information that is no more than one day old, NOT THREE DAYS OLD.

    Villabolo

    PARIS (Reuters) - France's ASN nuclear safety authority said on Tuesday the nuclear accident at Tokyo Electric Power Co's Fukushima Daiichi plant could now be classed as level six out of an international scale of one to seven.

    American Nuclear Society Backgrounder:
    Japanese Earthquake/Tsunami; Problems with Nuclear Reactors    3/12/2011 5:22 PM EST

  • freydo
    freydo

    Japan weighs need to bury nuclear plant

    (Reuters) - Japanese engineers conceded on Friday that burying a crippled nuclear plant in sand and concrete may be a last resort.......... It was the first time the facility operator had acknowledged burying the sprawling complex was possible, a sign that piecemeal actions such as dumping water from military helicopters or scrambling to restart cooling pumps may not work........

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/18/us-japan-quake-idUSTRE72A0SS20110318

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