The impossible delusion of evolution

by brotherdan 172 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    "Not one change of species into another is on record . . we cannot prove that a single species has been changed."—Charles Darwin, My Life and Letters.

    I think quote mining can be inherently dishonest, don't you think?

    Quote #2.7

    [Re: Evolution is a faith not based on evidence]

    "When we descend to details we can prove that no one species has changed (i.e., we cannot prove that a single species has changed): nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why some species have changed and others have not. The latter case seems to me hardly more difficult to understand precisely and in detail than the former case of supposed change" - Darwin, 1863.

    Representative quote miner: Treasures: Why Evolution!

    First of all, the quote is from a "P.S." to a letter to G. Bentham, May 22, 1863 [Darwin, F., ed. 1905. The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin , Vol. 1. New York: D. Appleton & Co., p. 209-10].

    As an aside, the main part of the letter is discussing, interestingly enough, the aspect of the fossil record that eventually lead to proposal of the theory of Punctuated Equilibria:

    The objection . . . of certain forms remaining unaltered through long time and space, is no doubt formidable in appearance, and to a certain extent in reality according to my judgment. But does not the difficulty rest much on our silently assuming that we know more than we do? ... [I]n judging the theory of Natural Selection, which implies that a form will remain unaltered unless some alteration be to its benefit, is it so very wonderful that some forms should change much slower and much less, and some few should have changed not at all under conditions which to us (who really know nothing what are the important conditions) seem very different.

    In essence, Darwin is saying that the stasis in the morphology of species found in the fossil record is partly due to the imperfection of the record itself and, possibly, partly due to differential rates of change in species. While Darwin's default position was for gradualistic change in species, such concepts are relative. He saw that some change in species could take much longer than others and, of course, the Punctuated Equilibria theorists only claim that change tends to come "rapidly" in geologic terms but over very long times in human terms.

    Now to the actual quote:

    P.S. -- In fact, the belief in Natural Selection must at present be grounded entirely on general considerations. (1) On its being a vera causa, from the struggle for existence; and the certain geological fact that species do somehow change. (2) From the analogy of change under domestication by man's selection. (3) And chiefly from this view connecting under an intelligible point of view a host of facts. When we descend to details, we can prove that no one species has changed [i.e. we cannot prove that a single species has changed]; nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why some species have changed and others have not. The latter case seems to me hardly more difficult to understand precisely and in detail than the former case of supposed change.Bronn may ask in vain, the old creationist school and the new school, why one mouse has longer ears than another mouse, and one plant more pointed leaves than another plant. . . . the fact that they have not been modified does not seem to me a difficulty of weight enough to shake a belief grounded on other arguments.

    Here Darwin is pointing that Natural Selection can be seen to operate and serves as a single coherent explanation for many diverse phenomena. Even if all the details of the individual phenomena are not known, the "consilience", in William Whewell's phrase, of his mechanism cogently explaining a wide range of events is, itself, support for its status as a "vera causa". [See Snyder, Laura J., "William Whewell", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2004 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.).] Add to that the fact that the fossil record generally shows change in life over time and the clear analogy from animal breeding, and there is substantial support for his proposed mechanism.

    As to the quote mined portion, Darwin is saying that, based on the fossil record (the only evidence available at the time, before genetics), there wasn't enough detail to say that aparticular species was the descendant of a particular earlier species. By the same token, then, it would be impossible to show from the fossils that any particular species had changed into another. This is a "problem" with all fossil evidence, at least until and unless we can recover DNA or other genetic material. It constitutes some sort of refutation of evolution only to those who are determinedly hopeful of one and willfully ignorant.

    The other point Darwin was making in the P.S. is that it is not necessarily possible to determine just what about a trait makes it advantageous, given the complexity of the interaction of the organism with the environment. In fact, Darwin is here warning against the "just so stories" that Stephen Jay Gould would inveigh against 120 years later. Once again, this is an excellent example of just how deeply and comprehensively Darwin understood his theory.

    This quote mine is similar to Quote 82 but longer and without additional text (not from Darwin) that was included in Quote 82.

    - John (catshark) Pieret

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part2.html

  • cofty
    cofty
    Not one change of species into another is on record . . we cannot prove that a single species has been changed."—Charles Darwin, My Life and Letters.

    Darwin never wrote any such book. Collections of his letters were compiled and published by his son after his death and can be downloaded for free at the Gutenberg Project. The first half of your misquote does not exist. The second half may appear in a letter to G. Bentham in 1863 in which he admits nobody had at that time observed an example of speciation.

    Of course that was 150 years ago and we now have a wealth of evidence for common ancestry. The fossil record did indeed provide the evidence Darwin hoped for but more conclusively the evidence from genetics is beyond all reasonable doubt.

    If you are sincerely interested I would recommend "The Making of the Fittest" by Sean B. Carroll

  • jamesmahon
    jamesmahon

    Why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined? But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? But in the intermediate region, having intermediate conditions of life, why do we not now find closely-linking intermediate varieties? This difficulty for a long time quite confounded me.

    The last part of this quote sort of makes your point a bit silly. It did confound him but not at the point he wrote that statement. The understanding of how evolution works now we understand genetics and the mechanism through which advantageous genes are propogated through a population was not known by Darwin or anyone in the 19th century so quoting their views on evolutionary evidence is a waste of time.

    Are you aware of what the evidence on evolution actually is? You might debate the scale of evolution, you might debate how it happens but to deny it happens is like still believing the earth is flat. To rephrase my original quesiton, what evidence do you need to actually believe that evolution has happened and is happening?

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Charles Darwin saw the problems with his theory. The only thing he could explain about the missing transitional fossils was that the missing links had not yet been found. They still haven't been found. There are not the millions of transitional fossils that we would expect to find from a species evolving from one species to another.

    It's not quote mining to quote Darwin's own statement of problems in his theory. Of course he believed it and had to rationalize some way around why there was not an appropriate fossil record.

  • cofty
    cofty

    There you go again - finish the sentence...

    "This difficulty for a long time quite confounded me. But I think it can be in large part explained."

    Darwin then goes on to do just that.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan
    If you are sincerely interested I would recommend "The Making of the Fittest" by Sean B. Carroll

    And I would recommend "The Holy Bible" by God.

  • jamesmahon
    jamesmahon

    I have read the bible. What books that explain the evidence on evolution have you read?

  • bohm
    bohm

    BD, do you understand Dembskis work? ie. the work you are saying is true?

    do you understand the notion of complex specified information he is building his argument upon? do you accept it, or do you blast others for not accepting an argument you do not understand yourself?

    Cofty, "Dan you remind me of me about 6 years ago"

    i wish i had known you back then.. it just do not compute.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Dan if you are genuinely interested in the evidence from the fossil record why not get a copy of "Evolution - What the Fossils say and why it Matters" by Donald Prothero. Once you have studied it you will be a little bit embarassed that you have kept on repeating that old creationist cannard.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I wish i had known you back then.. it just do not compute.

    Yep, I was a full-blown born again biblical literalist, creationist, Jesus worshipping guy. Never give up hope, with Darwin all things are possible :)

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