According to John, he baptized no one, his disciples did.
There is n o record of Jesus baptizing BY WATER, anyone.
The spirit is another matter.
The secret of how Christianity spread across the world
by Terry 108 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Quentin
I think many of you miss the point of this topic, turning it into a man vs woman diatribe. Woman and the domestic household is the foundation on which societies are built. Several years ago I read a book titled "When God Was A Woman" In the long ago of human history women ran the show at all levels. That is until hoards of male dominated warrior tribes moved in on the Earthmother farming groups. This theory has been around a long time, it is not new. Even today there are cultures, all around the world, wherin woman are dominate, not men. Yes, I know, they are few and far between, but do exist.
Terry's topic has merit. Think about it, don't let the ruse of male domination fog your mind. After all that's what men want, isn't it?...
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AGuest
Perhaps the idea of women having an ESSENTIAL and largely UNCREDITED role in the growth and spread of Christianity throughout history is a lump you cannot swallow.
Ummmmm... I don't think anyone's denying that, dear Terry (peace to you!). Indeed, Psalms prophecies that the women telling about the Most Holy One of Israel (or Christ) would be a "large army." However, that is VASTLY different from what appears to be your initial insinuation, which is that women are RESPONSIBLE (literally and in a negative way) for the spread of christianity. Not that they are merely responsible for its literal demographic spread. Which is what you stated. The two are not the same and such an assertion is like blaming the pen for the writer's words and propaganda.
The pen, however, cannot put letters together, create words, string out sentences... alone. It MUST be guided by the writer's hand. Otherwise, it lies inanimate on the table. It is ONLY animate when the writer picks it up. Now, once the writer picks it up, dips it in ink, and puts it to paper... well, then the pen can do a LOT of work. It can set down page after page... indeed, volumes. But only so long as the writer's hand moves. The pen, then, is just a TOOL, which the writer utilizes to affect HIS will. As were/are the women used by the clergy... to effect THEIR will. From your initial statements you appear to be blaming the tool(s) for the whim of its master(s), the writers. Or women... for the whim of the clergy.
I have converted to Judaism and the Jews DO NOT interpret the above scripture in the same way Christians do. In Judaism, Eve is blameless and it was Adam who sinned.
It is the same with true christians, too, dear Robdar (the greatest of love and peace to you!), as well as those who have some knowledge of what's actually in the Bible. Even Paul (?) wrote, "Sin entered through one MAN (not one woman, not even "through one man and one woman")... and death through sin." And, "In Adam (not Eve, or Adam and Eve)... all are dying." For any one who calls themselves a christian to believe that Eve bore the blame is telling. According to the NT, the early Body was reinformed that Eve was deceived - Adam was not.
Women do not even have to participate in Jewish ritual unless they choose to do so. It is men who must make ammends to God.
It is the same in a true christian household: men have the primary responsibility of acting as "priest" for their household. That is not to say that women have no responsibility; to the contrary, they certainly have it where their mate is an unbeliever, weak, indisposed, etc. And such responsibility runs parallel to their husband's. They should never usurp the husband's responsibility; however, if he isn't rising to the occasion, for whatever reason, they should certainly step up. Stepping up, however, doesn't mean demeaning him. Nor should a husband demand his wife - neither should demean the other... for ANY reason... and most particularly for their faith (or the other's lack thereof).
The WTBTS oversteps this truth. They have NO problem interfering in the affairs between a husband and wife, particularly when one or the other loses their faith. Indeed, they will encourage separation, even divorce... in DIRECT VIOLATION of my Lord's COMMAND that "what GOD has joined together let NO man put apart." They will have to answer for that... but so will those spouses who use the false "safety net" of their "faith" to get out of a marriage. That one's spouse no longer believes is NOT grounds for divorce. Rather, the faithful spouse is supposed to continue walking in their faith... and WITHOUT A WORD about faith... in the hopes of regaining the non-faithful spouse... through their OWN conduct, perhaps even through their own "priestly" prayer. That is what LOVE does. The only other grounds would be if the spouse (notice, the spouse) is no longer agreeable to dwelling together... and wishes to leave. In THAT case, one is set free from the "law" of that spouse. But if that spouse wants to stay married... and treats his wife/her husband accordingly (i.e., kindly, lovingly, with respect, etc.), then the fact that they no longer believe is irrelevant.
How does the WTBTS get around this? By misusing Paul's words to the Corinthians about becoming "unevenly yoked" and thus "separating" oneself (in lines with the ancient Israelites who put away their non-Israelite wives. But Paul wasn't even speaking of marriage in that account. In fact, no where in the entire letter (2 Corinthians) did he speak of marriage (between a man and woman). He was speaking of believers being joined SPIRITUALLY to those who did not believe. He was telling those who had BECOME believers... to separate themselves from those who CLAIMED to believe... but really didn't. For instance, those who are called to be a part of the Body of Christ who still "touch" religion... the "unclean" thing.
My apologies for the deviation, dear Terry. Just something that is "in" me as to their (the WTBTS') wicked interference in couples' affairs in this regard that needed to come out, I guess. I digress.
I realize that you (Terry) put great credence in what Mr. Stark (and others) has to say on the matter. I would ask YOU, however, to take your own advice and consider that perhaps both he and you are off on this. It's very easy for a man... or men... to come to the conclusion you do. But as a woman (and I am sure many other women will agree with me), I find it just another area where men believe they (or other men) can shirk their responsibility. I realize that due to the numbers it may appear as if women were/are to blame... and I don't deny that we have some responsibility, at least as far as the demographical spread... but given your chagrin as to christianity, I really think the blame ought to be put where it lies: with the "scribes and Pharisees" who are... absolutely and disproportionately... men.
Anyway... I know it was a lot. Have a little energy this evening (none earlier, yesterday, or Sunday, due to long day out with hubby on Saturday that virtually set my recovery back two full days! ARGHHHH!), and so this is the result. Again, my apology for the detour, and...
Peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
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JustHuman14
There are many aspects regarding how did Christianity spread out in the World. Perhaps we might have similar reasons why did Muslims spread out as well. Both religions have their foundations in Judaism, so they are kind of "Judaic Sects", although at their beginning Muslims consider to be a Christian Sect.
What did prevented Judaism to spread out in the Ancient World? I guess it was the fact that their God, was God of wrath with laws like, "an eye for an eye". Besides the Hebrew faith was based upon Mesopotamian legends and stories like Noah's Flood, a reproduction of Gilgamesh Epic and even the Mosaic Law is a copy of the Hammurabi's Code, and that is not a surprise to have many similarities, since Abraham came from Mesopotamia region and moved to Palestine.
Then we have the same pattern of Jesus story known to the Greco-Roman World. Mithras a Roman God, He was born through a Virgin Mother, had 12 disciples, he was considered the Light of the World, the Savior, died and resurrected for the sins of mankind. The same pattern is founded with the Egyptian God Horus, Greek semi- God Adonis. Again the same story is repeated through the Hindu Krishna (Christ) and Buddha.
So Christianity, or Jesus Christ story and teachings to be more accurate, are not something new to the World. They existed in different variations in many places, that's why it was easy to be accepted.
A key role, and one of the major factors of Christianity's expansion was the Hellenic Culture domination of the Ancient World. Since Alexander the Great conquered the known World he passed the Hellenic language, religion and philosophy to many other places. Socrates, Plato, have similar ideas and teachings like Jesus did, so for a "new" religion to appeared wasn't hard, since it had the same accepted principals. So we have the unique Hellenic Culture all over the Roman Empire from Minor Asia, Middle East, Black Sea, Balkans, Africa(just to remind you Alexandria and the vast Library it was build by the Greeks) Europe and Mediterranean Sea to be the dominated by the one and only Hellenic Culture and Language. Besides Jesus preaching was more successful to the Hellenic speaking Jews, instead of the native speaking Jews.
At the early stages of Christianity, the first 300 years it was persecuted by the dominant Roman religion of the era. So if you persecute something, it usually thrives. Christians had a unique bond -Love that was Jesus fundamental teaching. Jesus preaching gave an update role to women, we all know from the Gospels the way He spoke and deled with women, plus He first appeared to them after His resurrection from the death. Even in His Mother Womb we have the prophesy that "she will be honored like no other Woman on earth" and this honor it is clearly seen within the Orthodox/Catholic Church.
The emphasis on women appeared in the Gnostic Gospels and especially in The Gospel of Maria Magdalene, a gospel that was banned from the Biblical Canon (along with some others like the Gospel Of Thomas). We know that, at the Early Christian Church there wasn't any structure or central control, regarding of what Books could the congregations read, besides the 51 books of the Old Testament. We had many other writings circulating along with Epistles of the Apostles and along with them they used to be the Gnostic Gospels. It seems that in the Early Church women played an equal role like men, and this is obvious in the Gospel of Magdalene, that women could serve in the Christian Church. We even find early paintings in Rome's Catacombs that women served as priests. There was a conflict for the role of women within the Early Church and this conflict ended when Constantine declared Christianity as the official Religion of the East and West Romanae. The structure started to be more official and Church Councils (Synodos) started to take place in order to clarify Christian Faith, starting with Council of Nicene in 325A.D with the Trinity issue. Then the Biblical Cannon was clarified by Saint Athanasius in 365A.D. and sealed for good the Books that consisted the Canon, leading to fade the Gnostic Gospels.
So we have many reasons why did Christianity spread so fast:
1. The common Hellenic Culture and Language amongst the Greco-Roman Empire
2. Jesus message and teachings that was Universal to all
3. The important role of women in the Early Church
4. Constantine the Great who turned Christianity the Official Religion of East and West Roman Empire -
Terry
Consider the nature of INFLUENCE and PERSUASION in the spread of any belief, creed, ritual, lifestyle or practice.
Who is better at INFLUENCING and PERSUADING: men or women?
Historically and religiously, men work through force of command.
Few men historically bother to persuade when they can simply demand or conquer.
Kings and tribal leaders did not seek to reach the hearts and emotions of their subjects.
Boots on the ground and the point of a spear was the default boiler plate Mission Statement of any regime.
What was different about Christianity was that it had no means of FORCING others to comply.
It was FEMININE in nature!
Imagine somebody like Adolf Hitler or Atilla the Hun speaking eloquently about "Love, Joy, Peace, Long-suffering, Kindness, Faith
Mildness and self-control." It is hilariously laughable, is it not?
Consider that the one apostle chosen by Jesus who attempted violence (Peter cutting off an ear with his sword) was rebuked and the damage
was repaired (healed) immediately.
Jesus led no army and accepted no kingship or crown. (He did have a hissy fit at the temple, however :)
MEN'S CLASSIC METHODS could not be used to spread the Christian message and to model it as workable without femininity.
PERSUASION and INFLUENCE were vitally necessary to change people's lives to the point they would accept martyrdom rather than fight back.
This is not masculine by any means.
Christinaity's appeal was magical (miracles and healing) and feminine (turn the other cheek, charity, go the extra mile.)
Most of all it was NON-VIOLENT.
What self-respecting man living in the Roman Empire would welcom such a dialectic as a personal creed worth dying for?
That is, unless his mother and sisters had modelled the behavior and the belief from the cradle to adulthood?
Wives persuade their husbands. In fact, wives with UNbelieving husbands are targeted by Christianty and charged with persuasion toward acceptance.
Mothers and Wives are a powerful and inexorable foundation for later belief and acceptance.
Theirs is an EMOTIONAL influence insidiously lasting as a person's character is being built.
I go back to Constantine and his mother Helena.
What made Constantine, a pagan, warmly accepting of Christianity? It was his 18 or 19 years under Helena's charge and influence.
Think about it.
Alliances with pagan rulers were sealed by giving (christian) women as wives. The christian women brought up christian children in pagan households while
influencing and persuading their husbands.
HOW ELSE was it possible for those namby pamby, effeminate roving missionaries to score points in a masculine, martial, power crazed empire?
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PSacramento
Terry,
No one can doubt the infulence of any woman in a man's life, more so a mother ( as in the case of Constantine and Augustine, to name only 2) and both of them were "sainted" by the church for their hand in the conversion of their very influential sons.
How does that equal to a secret though ??
Wnile most historians focus on the theologians of Christianity,and rightly so, that happen to be Males, I don't think ANYONE would say that women were NOT a vital influence on the spread of christianity.
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ProdigalSon
I think the link below is totally apropos to the title of this thread. How Christianity spread across the world is indeed a secret.
I think it's imperative for any Christian to investigate all possible sources in order to ascertain what really happened during the first 5 centuries AD, and to get other perspectives besides just that of the Roman Church. What part did gnosticism really play?
It's the first of a 36-part series from Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine.
http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theosophy/ww/additional/christianity/InTheBeginning.html
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PSacramento
While it is nice an dinteresting to see "other views", we do need to remember that just because they are controversial and exciting, that doesn't mean they are true.
That said, it also doesn't mean they have NO truth.
As the old saying goes:
There is His side, Her side and then the truth.
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Terry
No one can doubt the infulence of any woman in a man's life, more so a mother ( as in the case of Constantine and Augustine, to name only 2) and both of them were "sainted" by the church for their hand in the conversion of their very influential sons.
How does that equal to a secret though ??
It appears not only to be a "secret" but a deliberate one. Just look at the rock-hard resistence we EX-JW's have to women here on the board.
It was pounded into us that women are the "weaker vessel" and that they "must not teach" and the are under man's "headship" blah blah blah.
Judging from the comments on this topic I'd say there is a carry over PREJUDICE of a sexist nature running through us still.
That equals keeping the power and influence of women A SECRET by the very nature of DOWNPLAYING again and again.
Women are undercut, supressed, controlled in the religious media. They are only used as poster decoration to advertise INCLUSIVENESS and NURTURING.
Many of us here and this discussion board are infected by a deliberate/unwitting anti-feminism due to our conditioning.
The SECRET will remain a secret until we give an honest accounting publicly in our discourse.
On another note........and as a similar example.....How many of us here know how much influence MRS. EINSTEIN, Mileva, had on Albert's theories?
Do you care?
http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/milevastory/married.htm
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Robdar
I have no problem with scholarly debate. I do have a problem with misogynistic overtones and egotisitical attitudes being thinly disguised as a scholarly discussion. And, by the way, Terry, I've written a few scholarly papers and my husband has written and defended the dissertation that got him his Phd, so we can state quite correctly that just because you footnote a book does not mean that you have supported your premise. It just means that you have found and quoted others who happen to agree with your opinions.
Again, this discussion borders on silly and seems rather misogynistic as it is presented to this board.