SEX, LIES, DEMONS, & APOSTASY

by You Know 57 Replies latest social relationships

  • SYN
    SYN
    Because sexual morality is not the invention of the Watchtower Society, but is the very basis of Jehovah’s sovereignty over His creation

    *COUGH* *COUGH*, whatever, man!

    The very basis of Jehovah's sovereignty over his Creation??? Care to explain? Cause not only is that one of the funniest things I've read all week, it is also completely bogus!!!

    "I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species, 1869.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    aChristian; I see you've been polishing your magic Christian secret decoder ring. Did you get yours from the same shop as You Know?

    Sorry to be sarcastic, but look at this;

    The only way the story of Adam and Eve makes sense is to understand that God not only knew how things were going to end up in Eden, but that He deliberately set the whole thing up to make a point.
    So, it was a practical joke, or a game of some sort?

    What point? This one. If Adam in paradise, without a problem in the world, could not manage to obey one simple command from God, what chance does any human being have of living their entire trouble-plagued life without sinning either in word, thought or deed? No chance at all.

    If your interpretation is true, then Adam had God setting up a plan to humiliate him (Adam) that he (God) knew would work. And that's not fair. God was deceitful. There never was a test as the test was not genuine. And note the deliberate avoidance of an issue; after this happened, it's meant to have set up the question of whether humans could govern themselves which history from that point is meant to have answered. But god had cursed mankind with disease, death, toil, labour-pains... almost to make sure they couldn't suceed, and on at least one occasion when they were doing well (Tower of Babel) intervened to mess things up, and on another occasion (The Flood) wiped everyone out bar those that were doing what he wanted, which contradicted any rules of fair-play.

    That is the lesson that was illustrated in Eden. Human beings have a sinful nature. A nature which God gave us.
    So, you do think it's god fault! And you worship, this, this, game player? This fake? This callous monstrosity? Hey, I don;t think he exists, but if he does according to your interpretation, then god is a bad guy, and I wouldn't worship that even if it did exist.

    Why did God give us a "sinful" nature? Because "God is love," and because God wanted to create people in his "own image," He wanted to create people whom He could have a loving relationship with. But since true love can be neither forced nor programmed, in order to have loving relationships with us, God had to create us as free people.
    You contradict yourself; you say god gave us a sinful nature, but that he also made us free. That's contradictory. It's like saying he gave us disease free bodies, but also gave us the tendancy to develop cancer. Your interpretation lurches towards the ridiculous.

    Free to choose to love God and His ways or to not love God and His ways. In other words, free to do both right and wong, free to do both good and evil.
    No, not free. Inclined to do sin, as you state yourself. That is not free. And not free to do good and evil, as evil attracts penalties, which means you are not free to be evil. Read what you write man!

    Because we can do wrong and often do, and because God can't do wrong and never does, we are less righteous than God.

    We are all on a moral high-ground compared to your god, a Christian.

    And because we are none of us deserve to live forever.
    If we were created to live forever with god knowing Adam and Eve would sin, then taking away imortality for doing something they were designed to do is not fair. Why does god have to be such a monster aChristian?

    That means all human beings have, in effect, from their births been condemned by God to die. Not because of anything Adam did, but because we ourselves all fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
    Please, god, save us from pseudo-Calvanistic guilt-ridden interpretations of the Bible! God is love and condemns all from birth to die. Yay god! What rubbish. Even if it was true, I wouldn't worship any creature like that

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • sadiejive
    sadiejive

    Funny....although I consider myself a "christian" I have to say I agree with Abaddon's reasoning.

    This is something that has always bothered me. God creates you this way and then punishes you for being the way that he himself made you to be.

    Just last night, I was reading my bible...I'm in Romans...and I read this:

    Romans 9:14-20,22:

    "-14- What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all. -15- For he say to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. -17- For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' -18- Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." -19- One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will?' -20- But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?... -22- What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power nown, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?

    When I read this, I couldn't help but feel a little, well...miffed.

    First of all, rather than give an answer as to why God would create man simply for "making his power and name known" or why He would make people just for the purpose of destroying so that he can show his "great wrath" (great wrath for people who are only acting on the instincts that He gave them, mind you)...Paul simply states, "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"....humph!

    Second, one has to wonder about a deity who creates:

    1. People who are made with a sinful nature.
    2. People who are blamed for acting on a sinful nature that was given to them by their creator.
    3. People who are punished for acting on a sinful nature that was given to them by their creator.
    4. People who are punished (such as Pharaoh) when they are hardened by God and act out of the hardness that God himself has placed in them.
    4. Some people simply so that he can destroy them for the purpose of proving His power.

    Maybe, I have a bad spirit....or perhaps I am one of these that He has fashioned simply to be destroyed, but this scripture doesn't sit right with me.

    Sorry to have veered off of the subject so. Just thought I'd vent.

    Sadie

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Let's examine this concept (logically): Robert begins;

    "The issue is as old as Eden itself, that being: Does God have the right to tell us what to do? That core question, more than anything else, defines what Jehovah’s Witnesses are about, in that we are outspoken advocates and supporters of Jehovah’s right as sovereign to require obedience from his creatures."

    If a higher power, higher form of intelligence exists, and is directly responsible for the "creation" of additional matter, life and existence as we know it, then obviously some type of heirarchical relationship must exist between the source and the progeny. Sound reasonable thus far? Now, if this "source" were identified or identifiable, then an indirect form of subjection is already in place. For example, the laws of physics and "nature" cannot be completely controlled/managed by humans, therefore we are subject to their activity/inactivity in our environments. These "laws" must originate with a source, correct? So, humans are subjected to a hierarchical order of physical events beyond our control within this dimension. No one can deny these facts. The only remaining unanswered questions are who is the "source", who has spoken for the "source" and who represents the "source". This the crux of religous/scientific debate. IGNORE the obvious detour into questions of apostasy!
    ______________________________________________________________________

    "The flip side of that is, of course, rebellion against God, which is expressed in numerous ways and on all levels of society. It only stands to reason that since there are powerful enemies who are indisputably vehemently opposed to the rightful rulership of Jehovah God, that anyone who accepts Jehovah’s sovereignty would likewise come under assault by those very enemies of God. The history of Israel is in reality a chronicle of Satan’s tireless efforts to harass, oppose, and corrupt the nation and prominent individuals within the nation, by any and every means possible. Satan’s machinations against Christ and Christianity are no less evident in the so-called New Testament. Since the opposition to God’s rule emanates from the demonic realm, and to date the demons have not died, but continue from one generation to the next, for that reason, then, the pattern is set and the die is cast and a rule of “nature” is established, whereby any expression of Jehovah’s sovereignty is met with the same resistance."

    If we temporarily "accept" that the BIBLE is the most accurate representation from the "source" of all existence, then the recurring theme of struggles between "good & evil" as experienced by humans occurs at a different level in the "heirarchical subjugation" of humans to the natural laws of physics, correct? The question remains then, how did the "source" explain/introduce the new abstract concept of good & evil to humans and for what purpose? If the "source" required acknolwedgment or interaction, aren't there enough physical properties in existence for communication? Just think of the electro-magnetic spectrum alone and you will see almost millions of possible venues for establishing communication that traverses physical elements and natural obstacles. This concept is debatable.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    "By far it seems that Satan’s most successful efforts have to do with exploiting and corrupting our sexual nature. Indeed, the demons are unquestionably the most sexually perverse creatures in the entire universe, in that they willfully transformed themselves from their heavenly non-sexual nature, into a lower order of sexually oriented creatures. No wonder Jesus referred to them as “unclean spirits.” It is not at all surprising, then, that Jehovah’s sovereignty today, as expressed in the movement of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society, is similarly challenged with the relentless efforts of the demons and their human agents to corrupt and oppose us. And because, individually, our Achilles’ heel is the tendency toward self-determination, particularly as regards the intimate matters of human sexuality, the efforts of our enemies are directed in that area.

    Because the spiritual ring-leader and instigator of the rebellion, Satan the Devil, is a most treacherous and cunning deceiver, who is bent upon leading all mankind into outright opposition to Jehovah’s kingdom authority, and because humans have built in frailties that predispose us to rebellion, for those reasons it is not always easy to recognize the revolt against God for what it is. That’s why the Bible gives, not only the historical development of the rebellion, but it also gives a helpful profile of the rebel himself which aids our recognizing them by their fruits, as Jesus said we must do."

    If the original "source" possessed advance knowledge of the outcome of all events occuring amongst "creatures" and nature within this dimension, then the primary responsibility, lies with the source in "correcting" inconsistencies and preventing any variables from corrupting the "design". It is only logical. Now, if the responsibility lies with other less powerful "sources", then the "master source" must exercise its original authority to correct variables that violate the integrity and control of the design. The question is "how is that being accomplished and at what levels of involvement engage humans, and in what manner"? This is subject to interpretation.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    "The letter of Jude and the 2nd chapter of 2nd Peter provide an exacting profile to help us identify the apostate from within. For example, after writing about God’s judgments upon the wicked angels and Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude writes: “In like manner, notwithstanding, these men, too, indulge in dreams, are defiling the flesh and disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of glorious ones."

    "Thus the ungodly men who were foretold to slip into the congregations are said to be defiling the flesh and speaking against lordship and ridiculing those whom Jehovah considers to be glorious, in that they have an anointing from him. The very fact that Jude would mention apostates and fallen angels, as well as Sodomites, in the same context is extremely relevant."

    "Because the Watchtower Society is an expression of Jehovah’s lordship, due to the fact that the congregations are administered under the authority of overseers, who likewise use the authority of God’s word conferred upon them through Christ Jesus’ lordship over all the congregations of God, the Watchtower therefore becomes the special target of those in revolt against Jehovah’s Lordship."

    Here is the "nucleus/heart" of Robert's real argument. Only the WATCHTOWER claims it is the actual expression, interpretation, represenation of the "master source" outlined in the BIBLE as Jehovah God. The "source" has not made an audible/visible statement as such; and the authority of the WTBS to make this assumption is highly questionable and has been studiously refuted on numerous occasions. Therefore, the apparent opposition and expository work conducted to inform humans is NOT an opposition to a "master source". We have recognized the possibility and probability of a higher "source" and do not question or "rebel" against this concept. It is only the audacious self-appointed assumption of authority of highly fallible organizations/entities that is opposed, and rightly so, since a conceptual struggle of good & evil (cause & effect; freedom & slavery) exist and we must exert effort as participants in this situation.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    "Interestingly, verse 10 goes on to say: “Yet these men are speaking abusively of all the things they really do not know; but all the things that they do understand naturally like unreasoning animals, in these things they go on corrupting themselves.” The things of which apostates are ignorant have to do with Jehovah’s judicial decisions and purposes to allow the very error which they indulge in, until such time as He sees fit to execute his judgments. That’s why the Psalms point out that God’s judgments are high up out of reach of such morally stupid ones. But, just as cunning predators in the wild instinctively know the weaknesses and habits of their intended prey, so too, the things that apostates “understand naturally like unreasoning animals,” have to do with their exploiting human weakness."

    "First, the predator knows that trust is very fragile, and human nature being what it is, slander is relished and taken into the inmost parts, as the Proverb says. By speaking against lordship, the apostate seeks to create suspicion and distrust in the minds of Jehovah’s trusting sheep in the credibility of the faithful slave. Paul wrote about those in his day who were, “puffed up with pride, not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words,” and who were glutted with “wicked suspicions."

    Here Robert, guilty by association, exposes and condemns the WTBS. The WTBS and JW leadership KNOWINGLY recruit, convert, indoctrinate, and inculcate additional members by dishonest means. The list of articles and essays exposing the blatantly erroneous interpretations of the BIBLE by the WTBS as too numerous to list. Just click here for scholarly examples: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

    The media is beginning to examine reports and episodes concerning the very same conduct YOU KNOW accuses so called "apostates" of engaging in, directly under the supervision and authority of the WTBS. The craving of flesh, political scandals, financial dishonesty, immoral conduct and activity are all vividly and candidly observed and reported in the media and other information services for the general public. Only members of the WTBS are sanctioned from discovering this truth about the truth.


    ______________________________________________________________________

    "Thus, by exploiting the misdeeds and mistakes of the brothers, the apostate seeks to give the impression of being a liberator from Jehovah’s oppressive organizational yoke. That’s why Peter’s profile of the apostate says: “For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. While they themselves are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slave of corruption.” How true that is! Which is why the very ones who proclaim that they are the liberated slaves of the Watchtower are at the same time the very promoters of every form of sexual immorality and perversion, from masturbation to homosexuality to sexual masochism. And if not personally indulging in sexual promiscuity, the apostate makes himself a partner with those who are, congratulating the deviant and approving of their course, even as the 50th Psalm relates Jehovah’s judgments, saying: “Why, you---you have hated discipline, and you kept throwing my words behind you. Whenever you saw a thief, you were even pleased with him; and you sharing was with adulterers.”

    In the master's words, "by their fruits you will recognize them..." Since ample research has proven the scholastic dishonesty of the WTBS and JW leadership numerous times, they continue as "bad trees" producing rotten fruit, actually distancing and confusing humans egaging in the search for a "source".

    Too, both Peter and Jude make mention of the fact that apostates have “followed the path of Balaam.” Meaning that like Balaam, the apostate seeks to lure others into immorality knowing that it would bring spiritual ruin upon their intended victim.

    Because sexual morality is not the invention of the Watchtower Society, but is the very basis of Jehovah’s sovereignty over His creation, it is therefore evident by the very existence of the apostasy, with it’s rotten fruitage of sexual immorality, that more is at issue than merely the Watchtower’s authority. This forum is eloquent testimony that XJW’s are not merely fleeing an oppressive religious organization, as some are under the impression, but that they are in outright rebellion against any imposition of divine authority. Given the telltale signs in evidence, according to the pattern in Scripture, it should be obvious to those who are not blinded by their own arrogance, that just as in times past, the demons are very much at the center of the apostate movement today."

    YES. In the BIBLE, renegade apostates seeking to control the authority and direction of early christianity did in fact lure and deceive many. And the apostles were able to guage the outcome by examining how their efforts/behavior turned out, and sure enough many were engaged in immoral/loose conduct. This very same situation exists today, in prevalence, within the WTBS and its member congregations. Hundreds, if not thousands of innocent children have suffered in the same manner as thousands of catholic children in the past, and today. The common denominator is both organizations ICatholicism/WTBS) claim authority as the representative of the "source". After careful historical and scientific research and investigation, it is proven beyond doubt, with millions of facts, evidence and testimony, that BOTH organizations represent ONLY their leadership and DO NOT originate with the "source" of life. In fact, both fail miserably in their representation of the BIBLE. Do the research.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    "Can there be any doubt that God’s word identifies the present generation of children, many of whom were who were brought up in the truth, as we say, but who rebelled against the faith of their parents, by these words: “There is a generation that calls down evil even upon its father and that does not bless even its mother. There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes but that has not been washed from its own excrement.” / You Know"

    Using the BIBLE as the instrument of identification of the "master source" and the law for humans, the WTBS is guilty by application, of every charge and accusation made against any entity, as posted by YOU KNOW.
    ______________________________________________________________________

  • dubla
    dubla

    many valid points raised here, and yet no response from yk. it appears he is once again proclaiming, without the ability to discuss and defend his beliefs the way he so emphatically claims he can.

    aa

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Hey Double A:

    What's up bro? Bash any trolls lately? Yeah, YOU KNOW is up to his antics again.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    I wanted to comment on "ACHristian"'s version, but Abbadon already took care of that and she did well!

  • dubla
    dubla

    not much utop....havent been on the forum much lately, just popping in and out. of course i usually dont pass up the opportunity to throw my two cents into a yk/nytel/yadirf thread, but even these guys have seemingly become boring to banter with lately.

    aa

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    I agree dude! They are not as "amusing" to play with (like a tiger plays with it's prey) anymore.

    NYTEL is actually becoming more ignorant? And Fred Hall is just too pathetic. You can't find any satisfaction or take credit for stomping ants. Anyone can do it. They are more and more like mosquitoes nowadays, as opposed to objective, reasonable, cooperative humans. They aren't learning anything, nor improving. Just buzzing around annoying everyone.

    I guess in their JW world of prophecy, they are supposed to be rewarded by Jehovah for all of their tireless efforts (miles of incomplete sentences, fragmented thoughts, plagiarism, ignorance, abject stupidity, nonsense, immaturity) used in "protecting Jehovah's name, defending the faith, and saving the free world" from apostates.

    He should be proud of their "work". I know they are!

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Ab,

    You wrote: So, it was a practical joke, or a game of some sort?

    No, it was a demonstration of the fact that the human race is less righteous than God, and thus undeserving of eternal life.

    You wrote: If your interpretation is true ... there never was a test as the test was not genuine.

    Where in the Bible does it describe the events which took place in Eden as "a test"?

    You wrote: after this happened, it's meant to have set up the question of whether humans could govern themselves which history from that point is meant to have answered.

    Really? Where does it say that in the Bible? It doesn't. That is Watchtower theology, which you have thoroughly confused with biblical theology.

    You wrote: But god had cursed mankind with disease, death, toil, labour-pains... almost to make sure they couldn't suceed, and on at least one occasion when they were doing well (Tower of Babel) intervened to mess things up, and on another occasion (The Flood) wiped everyone out bar those that were doing what he wanted, which contradicted any rules of fair-play.

    Again all Watchtower/Fundy theology, not biblical theology.

    You wrote: You contradict yourself; you say god gave us a sinful nature, but that he also made us free. That's contradictory.

    Nope. Our "sinful" nature is simply that we, unlike God, have the ability to act unrighteously if we choose. That is also our "free" nature.

    You wrote: No, not free. Inclined to do sin, as you state yourself. That is not free.

    I never said we are "inclined" toward evil, anymore than we are inclined toward good.

    You wrote: And not free to do good and evil, as evil attracts penalties, which means you are not free to be evil.

    Evil attracts no real penalties. Death is not a penalty for doing evil. It is a part of our nature. We were not created to live forever. Eternal life, however, is a gift God gives to all whom He declares to be righteous because of what Jesus Christ did for us. To receive this gift we need only to accept it by faith.

    You wrote: If we were created to live forever with god knowing Adam and Eve would sin, then taking away imortality for doing something they were designed to do is not fair.

    We were not created to live forever. Neither were Adam and Eve. The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life." (Genesis 2:9) Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to continue eating from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths.

    A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us. Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life."

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