Is Satan actually a liar? (page 2)

Broken Promises

The "Father" of the Pharisees was Jehovah. So who was Jesus talking about? Jehovah the Devil, the original liar and manslayer. It's right in the Garden of Eden story plain as day, without even reading it as an allegory.

Can you elaborate?

WTWizard

Satan tried to set mankind free from Jehovah. Had Satan been given a chance and Jehovah not interfered, we would have a free society today instead of one that is about to be captured by the Bilderberg group for mass human enslavement. Notably, Jesus also did the same work--and died trying to set us free.

Scooby-Doo

Good point, Tammy!

However... Eve at that point had committed sin, making her an imperfect being. Can we be sure that she genuinely felt deceived, and that she wasn't just covering for her mistake? (if of course, eating the apple was a mistake). This is just the impression that i get, and i really have no business guessing tone and intent in scripture, but Genesis 3:13 sounds very much like a scared child trying to deflect her fathers' anger onto another.

Putting that aside for a minute, who's to say that Eve's feelings of deception are an actual representation of Satan's intent? She may have felt like she was lied to because of misunderstanding what Satan said she'll gain and what she'll lose. I know that I've been in that situation before, when somebody has misunderstood my intentions and felt betrayed.

I'm just curious, what good would it have done if Satan had defended his actions? God wouldn't have listened to him, and Adam and Eve would have been against him (even if they felt he was innocent, due to their allegiance with their father). The only benefit of defending his actions would be the recording of it in the Bible, and would he even be aware of that at the time?

ProdigalSon

@BP

Can you elaborate?

I elaborate on this all the time.... or, just keep reading further into the OT and it becomes crystal clear where evil comes from....and it ain't Satan.

Check this out.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_as_the_Devil

Scooby-Doo

I just realized something from connecting the points of these 2 posts:

Heaven: "In addition, Satan didn't know God would kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. If they had remained, they would have become gods."

NikL: "The only reason they died was they were driven from the garden and weren't able to eat from the tree of life. Therefore it wasnt eating from the tree that killed them. It was God."

It is entirely possible that Satan had no idea Eve would die, meaning that he didn't lie. He would have been under the assumption that Eve could have all the benefits that came from eating the fruit, while still being able to eat from the tree later on. This would have meant that she would have actually been like God, knowing good and evil but still being able to keep her immortality.

Wow. It's interesting how differently you can start to view things once you start independent study. I guess this type of discussion is what the Society is scared of.

PSacramento

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’ ” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die; 5 for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, a knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.

Did the snake lie?

Nope, he didn't, he didn't even mislead, he told them what they wanted to hear and their pride did the rest.

tec

Then why didn't Eve die that day tec?

I don't know. Perhaps she did, in the same sense that Christ spoke about life and death. Spiritual life and death. When we do wrong, especially intentionally, does that not serve to separate us from God, from Christ... and therefore life? (they hid from God out of shame) She also had to know death, since she now knew good and evil (death being part of evil).

It wasn't the knowledge of the difference between good and evil. It was knowledge OF good and evil. Otherwise it makes no sense later that Solomon would be praised for asking to know how to judge between good and evil.

Putting that aside for a minute, who's to say that Eve's feelings of deception are an actual representation of Satan's intent?

I think the intent of the author is clear, setting the tone with, 'now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals God had made.' Nor did the serpent offer a defense for Adam and Eve, saying it was his fault - for those who think he was attempting to do them a kindness. He let them take the fall, and never tried to help them.

So not only did he not defend himself, but he did not defend them either.

He might not have lied (though he never spoke about them dying in that day, he only said, you will not surely die), but he did deceive, and he did tempt them into going against what God had told them. They did the rest.

Tammy

ProdigalSon

Straight out of the Jewish Encyclopedia:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=527&letter=E

—Critical View:

The account of the creation of woman—she is called "Eve" only after the curse—belongs to the J narrative. It reflects the naive speculations of the ancient Hebrews on the beginnings of the human race as introductory to the history of Israel. Its tone throughout is anthropomorphic. The story was current among the people long before it took on literary form (Gunkel, "Genesis," p. 2), and it may possibly have been an adaptation of a Babylonian myth (ib. p. 35). Similar accounts of the creation of woman from a part of man's body are found among many races (Tuch, "Genesis," notes on ch. ii.); for instance, in the myth of Pandora. That woman is the cause of evil is another wide-spread conceit. The etymology of "ishshah" from "ish" (Gen. ii. 23) is incorrect (ad loc.), explains the name as meaning "serpent," preserving thus the belief that all life sprang from a primeval serpent. The narrative forms part of a culture-myth attempting to account among other things for the pangs of childbirth, which are comparatively light among primitive peoples (compare Adam;Eden, Garden of;Fall of Man). As to whether this story inculcates the divine institution of Monogamy or not, see Gunkel, "Genesis," p. 11, and Dillmann's and Holzinger's commentaries on Gen. ii. 23-24. E. G. H.

Scooby-Doo

"Nor did the serpent offer a defense for Adam and Eve, saying it was his fault"

But was it his fault? He only informed Eve of what she had to gain from eating the fruit. She made her own decision, as did Adam.

Eve only said to Satan that if she were to eat or touch it, then she would die. Since Satan was unaware that she would be driven out from the garden of Eden, doesn't that mean that (at that point in time) he was speaking the truth as he knew it?

tec

Since Satan was unaware that she would be driven out from the garden of Eden, doesn't that mean that (at that point in time) he was speaking the truth as he knew it?

Disregarding the introductory line about the serpent being crafty, then yes, it could mean that. Not necessarily, though. The introductory line seems to introduce the serpent as knowing exactly what he was doing... tricking Eve into disbelieving God and acting against Him. Perhaps even just tempting her with something she would find desirable, and playing on her desires by telling her what she wanted to hear (some truth, no consequences), as Psac also mentioned above.

Tammy

Is Satan actually a liar?

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