How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance now?

by SweetBabyCheezits 101 Replies latest jw friends

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  SweetBabyCheezits

  Kind words is tellin' my old man, that he just gave me the best two minutes of my life

  It's a thin line between kind words and lyin' , ain't it

  

  PFFFFFFTTTT!!!
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  d

  Yes I do not salute the flag even though I am no longer a JW to me it is too cultish.Even though I am an American I consider myself just a human being.Think, is not the United States just a plot of land? nobody really owns it. Countries are just human constructs of the mind.Children are forced to do the pledge of allegiance as a form of brainwashing and indocrination.The powers that be, do not want critcal thinking people to realize how badly they are getting screwed over.So they indocrinate the children knowing that children lack the critical thinking skills needed to form a sound arguement.It is all an element of control
• 

  SixofNine

  But maybe I'm overthinking (or underthinking) this. Any thoughts?

  Nah, you're not overthinking this. But this is all the beauty of being a smart, cool parent: you get to discuss with your daughter what you just discussed with us.

  After that, it's up to her. She may see it as something to take a stand on, or she may think it would be insane to make waves about something as minor as this. Because it really IS about politics as much or more than ideology, but it's her personal social-self-politics that matter in this case; ie: how she wants to present herself to the world.
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  Wasanelder Once

  SBC:

  "But maybe I'm overthinking (or underthinking) this. Any thoughts?" My point exactly. You are overthinking this. The salute means nothing to the kids. The only thing uncomfortable is the standing out. For me that was the honor of it when I thought I was in the right. In time no child gave it a second thought because it was by wrote. It was a non issue.
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  Wasanelder Once

  "Brainless motions" children go through: 1. Drawing thanksgiving day turkeys on paper plates. 2. Singing xmas songs with the class. 3. Painting Easter eggs. 4. Saying the pledge of allegiance. Clear enough? None of those things amount to anything. Even the pledge is bogus. Kids are made to say this from first grad on and by 6th grade or so it stops in any great measure. Even sooner in my experience. The words mean nothing much to a child. It is what is said at home about the subject that makes the impression. No matter how often they say it at school it is simply by wrote unless you make an issue out of it. Hence, quit jerking the kid around. It's either ok or not. Glad SBC isn't giving the child a reason to stop it now that it has been sanctioned. That would make SBC ambiguious and unreliable. That SBC aint.
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  Giordano

  Personally I think we all have a long way to go when we leave the JW world.

  After I left I was still carrying the JW belief system, or part of it, on my back. I was taught that I wasn't to be a part of this world so even up to ten year later I was a fairly worthless citizen. I did not vote, I did no community volunteer work. I didn't donate to others less fortunate. I got out of jury duty etc.

  It took a while to realize that our country is just not run by the government and that the government was not able or willing to solve my every problem or my communites. That private citizens were needed to help make things work. The school boards and hospital volunteers. Charities like the free clinic and the food pantry. The little league, the Scouts. City council members etc. etc. etc.

  Somewhere in all of this we have to decide if we’re a citizen of this country or not and If we care about how things are run and do we want to make it a better place.

  The witnesses' seek to separate everyone from their respective countries. LOYALTY to the WTBTS is the first tenet. The pledge seeks to remind people in this melting pot of a country that just because our citizens have come from every nation and every religion we are still one nation united etc.etc. That message is the ideal but not always the reality.

  As a parent I found that the only negative impact the pledge is going to have is having a third grader stand there with their arms at their side, learning early on that they are different.
• 

  RubaDub

  As a JW or not, I still never liked the part: " ... and to the Republicans, for which it stands, one nation ... "

  Rub a Dub
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  Gio, I appreciate your input. I can assure you that our thinking is only influenced by our old beliefs in that I don't want my kids to EVER be indoctrinated with religious or political dogma.

  This is likely with the same passion that you feel a child shouldn't have to stand out as different in class due to parents' beliefs.
• 

  SweetBabyCheezits

  Wasanelder Once: My point exactly. You are overthinking this.

  I appreciate your input since I asked. And if I were alone in my perspective, I might agree. It's clear now, though, that I'm not the only one who sees a problem so I hardly think your opinion should unequivocally define the amount of thought I - or anyone else - put into this. Sure, that could just be confirmation bias on my part but I reached my current view only after critically questioning why I was okay with the pledge after getting out of the org.

  The salute means nothing to the kids.

  Right, and I don't like them being coerced into making meaningless oaths that devalue a promise of loyalty.

  The only thing uncomfortable is the standing out.

  Then I'd rather my kids learn to be uncomfortable and stand apart than offer blind allegiance just to fit in. But, again, she will be the one making that decision. If she chooses to continue to pledge, I will love and support her just the same. At least she will have considered the meaning.
  
  Can you think of any circumstances in which kids shouldn't submit to herd bias? Or maybe it's always best to go with the crowd so as not to be viewed as "different"? {edit: removed as that was a strawman argument on my part.} Do you see any value in thinking apart from the majority?
  
  My goal is to supply some facts and alternate views and let her know it's totally fine to refuse making an oath if she doesn't want to. It's as simple as that.

  For me that was the honor of it when I thought I was in the right.

  Good, then that means the awkwardness of being different is offset by the honor of upholding personal values, so long as the child considers those values to be his/her own. And only as long as he or she continues to maintain that perspective.
  
  Now your perspective has changed regarding the BASIS for not saying the pledge. You no longer have the JW perspective, so you no longer see any honor in refusing to pledge. Now it's just embarrassing for you to think you stood silent, afraid God would be pissed if you joined in. How foolish, eh?

  Well, guess what. We don't believe that either. But we've started developing a totally new mindset that shares an eventuality or two with JWs. *GASP* The basis is still completely different and my daughter can decide for herself. But that doesn't mean I'm going to withhold other perspectives. I want her views to be as broad as possible.

  In time no child gave it a second thought because it was by wrote [rote]. It was a non issue.

  I'm sure it was a non-issue to Germans who raised their hand to Hitler, as well. Again, no pledge, oath, or heil should be forced upon anyone, especially children. All I'm doing is letting my daughter know it is okay if she doesn't wish to participate.

  "Brainless motions" children go through: 1. Drawing thanksgiving day turkeys on paper plates. 2. Singing xmas songs with the class. 3. Painting Easter eggs. 4. Saying the pledge of allegiance. Clear enough? None of those things amount to anything.

  Yes, very clear. You place an oath of undying loyalty on the same ethical level as drawing turkeys and painting eggs. Like I said, you and I value things differently. Numbers 1, 2, and 3 aren't pledges or oaths that the kids are coerced into making. Just because you don't view pledges and oaths (giving one's word) highly, that doesn't mean the rest of us feel the same way.

  Even the pledge is bogus.

  And you believe it's okay for a child to be coerced into reciting "bogus pledges". I don't.

  It is what is said at home about the subject that makes the impression. No matter how often they say it at school it is simply by wrote [rote] unless you make an issue out of it.

  I agree. That means we can discuss it at the dinner-table and she will at least learn to think critically before simply reciting random {edit} oaths fed to her by "authority". Even if she chooses to go ahead and say the pledge, she'll have considered the meaning behind it.
  
  Perhaps that's why those who are on the leading edge of discovery are where they are now. Perhaps their parents encouraged them to question things that other kids were mindlessly chanting. Perhaps meaningless pledges aren't beneficial at all. So why perform them?

  Hence, quit jerking the kid around. It's either ok or not.

  The more you write the less I value your opinion. I don't know if its a lack of comprehension skills that makes you so obtuse but I've made it clear I'm not jerking anyone around. Also, congrats on being able to see things in black and white still.

  Glad SBC isn't giving the child a reason to stop it now that it has been sanctioned.

  Your sarcasm is noted and denied. While I'm not telling her what to do, I am certainly sharing new perspectives on it so she can make an educated decision based on pertinent facts. As I said before, I hope to teach her how to think, not what to think. Blind acceptance need not apply.

  That would make SBC ambiguious and unreliable.

  Au contraire, MF. You are confusing ambiguity with changing one's mind based on new and relevant information. And if such a thing is unreliable, please let the scientific community know because their entire infrastructure is built around open-mindedness and critical thinking.
  
  I tell my daughter that our views should not be unchangeable, because an unchangeable mind is a non-functioning mind. That doesn't mean we should be indecisive but we should be willing to adjust our perspective as we collect additional facts. I tell her that I make plenty of mistakes and I am wrong about things every day and that, as an adult, she will have to determine for herself what she believes. In this case, it is a minor issue but one that should be viewed with critical thinking no less.
  
  As I said before, our current desire to abandon the pledge is totally different from that of JWs. The outcome is similar but path is not. And that, sir, is what I want my children to think about more than the end result: the principle and ethics behind it.

  That SBC aint.

  I'm glad you think so. Because for a minute there, it almost sounded like you were passive-aggressively implying just that.
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  chickpea

  just piping in to say that i learned from a
  WONDERFUL history teacher back in the day
  that the way US kids are taught history, and
  it may well be true for other nations, is that
  the first several years, usually up to 4th grade,
  the cirriculum is skewed to inspire a sense of
  love for country, moreso than patriotism

  then the next phases allow the students to
  acknowledge flaws and missteps and finally
  to think critically about the unsavory aspects
  of their nation's history and their responsibility
  to make things work better...

  thank you, mr. williams, wherever you might be

  the pledge? if it said "i thoughtfully consider the actions of the government
  that represents the aspirations of the nation that is symbolized by this flag,
  and work to make said government and therefore the nation deserving of
  allegiance".... i would say it