My Committment to JWD

by Amazing 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    I debated the wisdom of making this post. I have made every effort to make it as neutral as possible to avoid personally offending anyone. I may be losing my marbles here, but I feel that this needs to be said. This will be my last statement on this topic.

    Some feel that they do not claim to be a judge of a state of mind, but then go ahead and judge other people's state of mind. Here is a short little test to illustrate the difficulties of written communication:

    Scene: A police Officer is driving along and a car comes around the corner going the other way. He nearly side-swipe them. As they pass, they yell at the Officer, “PIG”!!!

    1. Are they angry at him because they thought he got to close to them?
    2. Are they warning him that a PIG is standing in the road around the corner?
    3. Do they just hate Cops in general?

    What is their state-on-mind? Without all the other input that communication normally provides, the single dimension of the written word can and often does leave a different impressions on the reader than what the author intended.

    When we read something from a person we know well, we can more easily read it as though we heard them talking. And unless they say something out of the normal for them, then we can feel somewhat safe that we have properly understood what they intended.

    When we read a post from someone we don't know well at all, then it is very natural to read it with our own emootional reactions. If we are in a bad mood, we might see something as very negative. If we already don't like the author, me might assume a tone and manner inconsistent with their intent. If our life experiences have caused us to treat certain words and phrases as negative, then wihtout knowing the author, we can easily overlay our own mood into what was written.

    Illustration of how our emotions can dictate our reactions:

    Scene: Two long time acquaintances meet. One calls the other a SON OF A BITCH!

    1. Is this an insult as pay back for some past grievance?
    2. Is this a term of endearment for some sub-cultures?

    There are many variables here ... a person from the southern USA might react very strongly because calling someone an SOB is an extreme insult. Whereas a country westerner from Arizona or California might feel it a term of endearment. Another example is how people in major metro areas talk compared to those in rural areas. The "F" word is less offensive or perhaps more accepted in New York than say Smallville, Kansas.

    Face to face will determine much of how calling someone an SOB is received. With just the written word, there could be confusion as to whether humnor was intended, or some cultural thing, or tone of voice.

    The difficulty is determining whose responsibility it is to resolve the problem. Each side may feel that the other is solely responsible. Maybe if two people really want to solve a problem, they both share in that same responsibility. To be honest, I don't know. And sometimes, no matter what we do, we can never make amends because the other side will not have it that way.

    Another problem with communication is making claims or allegations - al la Ad Hominem, but then failing to back such up with examples that demonstrate the validity of such claims. Here is a quote to that illustrates my point. I have removed reference to the author, because the issue is what is at stake, and not the person:

    " ... but believe me those nuns masde sure I had reading comprehension skills. Easy to comprehend cowardly avoidance of addressing someone when called out. I also recognized inflammatory statements and words used to manipulate the emotions. You cleverly used all of the above, to little avail."
    How does one address the context here? I will do my best.

    1. I seriously doubt that "Nuns" taught reading in such a manner so as to help students identify and comprehend that a 'no comment' is somehow an act of cowardice.

    2. A claim of use of manipulation and inflammatory words is made. With what evidence? What specific words or statements can be identified that would be highlighted such that the offender could see it and then be afforded opportunity to either clarify or apologize? None. Not one clear coherant or cognitive sentence is provided to make a solid argument. Without that essential ingredient placed into the equation, it is impossible to to go anywhere with such claims. They remain forevermore, mere claims, and nothing more.

    So, here is my personal committment as a participant on this forum. If I ever in any way say something that offends, or causes feelings that I am being manipulative, or using inflammatory words, or exhibits some state-of-mind that I am acting in less than a genuine manner, then I agree to the following:

    1. I will look at specific examples where quotes of my statements are made, and the Offendee then makes specific discussion of how my words could have caused themn angst. I will make an honest effort to understand the problem. Claims alone are worthless. This was the same problem I had with JW Elders. they would make claims, but then speak in cryptic terms so as to deflect from needed evidence and examples. I told them to take their hypotheticals and go, because there is no way to address pretend issues.

    2. I will make every effort to resolve the problem by either admitting that I was insensitive, or clarifying my intent. This is where I expect honest dialogue. This can be done on or off forum, but to me it is only fair to allow some healthy exchange before being boxed into admission of error.

    3. From here on out, if someone is not comfortable discussing with me on the public forum my behavior, then by all means, feel free to privately email me at [email protected] I will keep any such discussions confidential.

    4. If after thorough discussion, I have realized and admitted my error, and you want a public apology, then it will be done. If private is enough, I will abide by that.

    5. I ask the same treatment toward me in return. If I am puzzled by something said to me or about me, I will follow the above - respectfully.

    Yes, many of you know me, and feel that maybe I did not need to post this committment. I agree that it is likely not necessary. Most here have good common sense and social skills, so this exercise is not really necessary for everyone. I am not trying to talk down to anyone. I just want to say what is on my mind so that it is on the record.

    Maybe in some cases this post may prove to set the stage for future constructive dialogue and conflict resolution. That is my hope and I am willing to engage anyone on that level playing field. Some might feel that it is a good thing. I don't know until I post something how it will be received. None of us as yet are mind readers, unless of course, evolution has taken some recent new turns.

    Thanks for listening and being there. Enough said by me. Now, I will end all further comments about this issue, and move on to other things.

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    hello... skally? Are you paying attention? ;)

    Cygnus, often also misunderstood

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    The first two of Jeff's rules for life:

    1) In the normal course of things you will piss some people off. Therefor there is no point in going out of your way to piss off a few more.

    2) The opposite is also true, life is too short to spend it being pissed off about what somebody else said or did.

    I try to apply my own advice in talking on the internet. I wish a few others would do likewise.

    Amazing, I've always read and appreciated your posts. You have some valuable insight, I hope you keep sharing it.

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hi Amazing,

    I saw your post about me--but of course "not" about me....;-) Anyhoo, I threw a small collection of things together, mind you a very small sampling of the volumes to select from, I don't want to make a big project of it or anything cause it isn't that important to me.

    Couple items first. I only yesterday saw your post Amnesian's Legacy, you wrote it while I was away I would like to commend you for finally posting a rebuttal, had I seen it sooner I'd have commended you sooner. With that said, and certainly without intention of a detailed discussion of said post (as you Once Again claim at the end of *this* post you want to move on), I really must make comment on a particular reference you made about me (which you are doing so often lately--do you have a crush on me? :

    :Julie wrote a thoughtful post that made me change direction. (Had Julie maintained that style of balance, I would more likely have been persuaded to stick with it.)

    Excuse me if I find this statement particularly amusing coming from one who so proudly declares to be a Conservative Republican, the ones who INSIST on everyone taking personal responsibility for their Own Actions/Circumstances. Is it just me Amazing or does this statement basically blame me for the actions you took subsequent to Amnesian's rebuttal? I find that very sad.

    You recently made this statement to Sexy teen:

    :There is no JC here anyway ... well ... except the Triune Club of ... mmmm ... I had better not say, or I might be back in the Hot Seat with them. But their initials are Julie, Tina, and Amnesian - The Awesome Judges of Your State of Mind.

    I couldn't help but notice, after reading the above and addressing it, coming across several statements of yours in the newly discovered (by me) rebuttal to Amensian and a couple other sundry places that came to mind off the top of my head. You read the words and formed your own judgements, claiming to know intent. Here are a few samples, just from that post of yours to Amensian, correct me if I am wrong, by all means.

    :PART TWO: PERSONALITY AND CHARACTER ISSUES – THE REAL AGENDA

    Ah, the "real agenda". You are privy to Amensian's thoughts to know her real agenda? Or did your reading comprehension skills and reasoning lead you to believe you had a pretty good idea of her real agenda?

    :Reading Amnesian’s posts does reveal that she is after my character, or at least my character is the stepping stone for her bully pulpit against the JW system and its Elders as a Collective.

    "Does reveal"??? You seem to feel sure enough about this to state it as fact. You were in her head and verified this??

    :Somehow, this was translated to involve me too. Julie then deliberates that a large number of women on the board have the same negative feelings toward me, and they needed someone to speak out for them. That “Spokesperson” , judging this prima-facie given the sequence of events, appears to have been Amnesian, in Julie’s eyes.

    I never said there were people who felt they needed someone to speak for them, I stated that there were obviously some deep seeded feelings toward you , judging by some of the passionate reactions to some of what Amnesian said. I know I personally found your tone rather offensive at times and must admit to thinking maybe it was time someone of the "fairer sex" did call you out. I knew I would certainly not have the patience to do it nor, really, the inclination. You twist my words here and that doesn't really seem very honest. You obviously exaggerated what I said in your mind.

    :After a long diatribe review of who said what to whom, and with all her creative writing skills now put to the test to embrace the reader at how she can dangle and tie phrases, and negotiate through many language hoops and loops, she starts to really engage us with her real agenda

    Not only do you somehow have the powers to know her "real agenda" you seem to display an almost writing-ability-envy. Of course you are taking what you read, comprehending it, reasoning it and coming up with your view of it, isn't that right Amazing?

    :Her writing, though creative, betrays her view of this forum and its participants.

    Is this you making a judgement call based on what someone actually wrote?? My goodness that is so horrible! Only someone wretched like Julie or some other member of "The Triune Club" (why still trying to villianize us Amazing?) would do such a thing!

    All these examples of you "knowing" someone's mind from what they wrote. Just from one post Amazing. Do you see anything that reminds you of Practice What You Preach?

    Yes I made statements about you. I included your words to demonstrate where my reasoning was coming from and then my comments. It seems to me this is what you have done repeatedly throughout this one post. This doesn't even include all of them from one post.

    Now Amazing, I am going to toss the ball into your court. If you really meant (as you said in your Amnesian's Legacy post):

    :You stated your case, and I stated mine [in my final installment Amnesian - The Legacy]. Those reading both sides have stated what they think. Some agree one way or the other, and some see both sides. There are other more interesting things to talk about. So, why don't we just let it go? It has been an interesting exercise. I grant you that you state things well. Good for you! I am moving on from this topic.

    then let's just move on. Let's not drag it about, dropping the names of those you are still so angry at at every opportunity. If you are moving on, if you think nothing more productive can possible result in disucussing the whole debacle further, well then Hell is Freezing Over cause you and I (and probably the whole board membership) are in agreement!!

    If you need to get a rant or two our of your system then by all means have at it man, just quit with dribs and drabs of confrontation about it all. Let's just get it over and move on, or, if there is nothing to get over anymore, let's just do the move on part.

    The choice is yours.

    Julie, who promises to be as civil and rational as possible if and/or*when* ever disagreeing with Amazing again but plans to mostly avoid him

  • anewperson
    anewperson

    Hang in there, Amazing. It can be anticipated that some who attack you are actually pro-Watchtower. I get it too, especially when they think we're getting extra close to Big Mama. Best thing is to attack her even harder when they do that, see.

    Here we're talking not just about logic but emotions. I'm kind of upset myself now because I'm told I've overposted new threads and must wait, yet just came across a highly interesting bit of news.

    Well, it relates to emotions if not logic for it's a murder that just happened in Boston. Maybe someone else could repost it in its own thread:

    Eastie man held in wife's strangling

    by Dave Wedge
    Saturday, February 2, 2002

    A nasty custody battle and divorce turned deadly in East Boston when a city tow truck driver strangled his wife with a necktie and then fled to a New Hampshire ski resort where the couple vacationed and tried to kill himself, officials and sources said.

    ``He just wanted to stay in the house with his kids,'' said a close friend of Kevin Hensley. ``I think it just got too overwhelming for him and he didn't know what to do and this is what happened.''

    Hensley, a 55-year-old Boston Transportation Department employee, allegedly strangled his wife, Nancy, in the family's Byron Street home Thursday afternoon. The couple, who have four kids, were in the midst of a bitter divorce that began just three weeks ago when Nancy Hensley, 45, tossed her husband out of the house and got a restraining order against him.

    According to police, the couple's oldest daughter made the grim discovery in the basement of the home around 2:15 p.m. and called 911, saying that her mother was unconscious and her head was covered. A source said Hensley was strangled with a necktie. Kevin Hensley, described by friends and neighbors as a hard-working father, was not at the home when police arrived. Thursday night, Waterville Valley police officers found Hensley unconscious in his wife's 2000 Buick LeSabre. A source said he attached a hose to the exhaust pipe and stuffed it in the window in an apparent suicide attempt.

    He was taken to a local hospital where he recovered and was arrested by New Hampshire state police on a Bay State warrant charging him with his wife's slaying. He was ordered held without bail after a hearing yesterday in Plymouth (N.H.) District Court. He is due back in that court Feb. 28 but prosecutors hope to bring him back to Massachusetts sooner to face the murder charges, Suffolk County District Attorney's Office spokesman David Procopio said.

    Kevin Hensley's friend, who didn't want his name used, said the couple used to vacation at the New Hampshire ski resort.

    ``Waterville Valley was a place where he and Nancy would go in happier times,'' the friend said. ``He just went there and was trying to remember the happy times.''

    The friend said Hensley was ``embarrassed'' when he was served with a restraining order last month at work. He described the Hensleys as ``the perfect couple'' and said they ``fought no more than anyone else.''

    In court papers, Nancy Hensley claimed her husband was ``violent,'' verbally abusive and once punched a hole in a wall. She also said he recently spied on her at a local gym, sporting a phony beard and sunglasses.

    ``I was at Bally's and he was there in disguise, with a fake beard and sunglasses, stalking me for 45 minutes,'' she wrote in a court affidavit obtained by the Herald. ``Then he seen (sic) me speaking with someone for 3 minutes and he came over and verbally abused me and left. I stayed out for a while going food shopping because I was afraid to go home.''

    She also alleged that he violated the restraining order several times by going to the Byron Street home. The divorce and a motion to extend the restraining order were still pending but the case was moved out of Suffolk County to Middlesex County because Nancy Hensley's sister worked as a secretary for the Suffolk judge assigned to the case, court papers show.

    Kevin Hensley's friend said Nancy Hensley was a recently converted Jehovah's Witness and claimed that ``someone was guiding her in this (divorce).''

    Neighbors yesterday said the Hensleys appeared to be a happy family. Nancy Hensley often jogged and rode bicycles with their daughters, ages 20 and 10, while Kevin Hensley shot hoops and worked on the house with their sons, ages 17 and 6.

    Nancy Hensley, who was unemployed, was recalled by one female relative yesterday as a ``good mother.'' Alice Norton, the Hensleys' 81-year-old wheelchair-bound neighbor, called Nancy Hensley a ``beautiful person'' who often stopped by to check on her. ``She was a lovely, lovely lady,'' Norton said. ``They're very nice people. I'm just shocked that this happened.''

    David Weber contributed to this report.

  • AMNESIAN
    AMNESIAN

    Hold the presses. This just in from A(mazing) N(ews) N(etwork):

    I debated the wisdom of making this post.

    Obviously "wisdom" took it in the shorts.

    Let me take a wild guess at how this went---after mounting rebuttal after endless rebuttal against yourself, apologizing to yourself, thanking yourself for your support, and bidding yourself farewell, only to mount additional endless rebuttals, you finally "won," if only for having gotten in the last word, all the while assuring yourself that after you got it in, you would definitely be moving on to other and worthier debates with your selves, that is, after lobbing just one more last, final, ultimate, I-mean-it-this-time word to yourself.

    How close did I come?

    <snip> I may be losing my marbles here
    H’boy. Decisions, decisions. Kiss this one off the glass or take it hard inside for the slam???

    So, here is my personal committment as a participant on this forum. If I ever in any way say something that offends, or causes feelings that I am being manipulative, or using inflammatory words, or exhibits some state-of-mind that I am acting in less than a genuine manner, then I agree to the following:

    < snipped remaining "oblah-me, oblah-my, oblah-myself, oblah-I" libretto >…

    Okay, just brainstorming here. Instead of JWD, I’m thinking why not "www.amazing-discussion.com, Discussion Forum for All Things Amazing-Related"?

    Eh, yeah, yeah?

    You know, "all 'AMEZING,' all the time."

    How’s that sound? Cool, eh?

    AmazingSpeak for Dummies, 144,000th edition:

    Enough said by me. Now, I will end all further comments about this issue, and move on to other things.
    Translation:

    "But, enough about me. Let's talk about you. So tell me, what do you think about me?"

    What ever made me think you lacked a sense of humor, Amusing?

    -AMNESIAN

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Ahhhhhhhhhh ... Amnesian AND Julie together like the DYNAMIC DUO ... Batwoman and Robinette ... Yesssssss ... I knew you couldn't resist. It's okay ... I am making some coffee, and later on will get around to this.

    Here are the rules:

    3. From here on out, if someone is not comfortable discussing with me on the public forum my behavior, then by all means, feel free to privately email me at [email protected] I will keep any such discussions confidential.

    5. I ask the same treatment toward me in return. If I am puzzled by something said to me or about me, I will follow the above - respectfully.

    Email me off board.

    Then again, I don't know, but then again, I will talk about it here, but then again, I will quit the board, but then again, I will come back, but then again I won't talk about this, but then again, I will ... coo-coo for coa-coa puffs ... I am going flipping blithering insane ...

    Seriously ladies, I really don't care. You just type away and make your little case or whatever you call it. You've got a thing for me, I know ... you should see my picture, I am a HUNK ... even with a big Cuban Cigar sticking out my mouth, and a nice scotch in my hand.

    I could be wrong, but I think you two are anal retentives starves for some serious attention from your husbands ... and you have found you cause in me ... a 50 year old ex-JW guy who has a so-so life ...

    Hey, I don't take you two serious ... and that is why I could post this thread, cause I knew at least one of you would come flying out to make your case, or set up a whole new let of charges and allegations.

    Hey, Amnesian, I actually loved your post sweetie. I wish I had not taken you seriously at first, cause I might of laughed more.

    Thanks Julie and Amnesina for maiing my day. Yea ... gosh, gee wizzzzzz ... I was a little dense at first, but I am kind of growing to love you two litle cuddly cozy pooh-bears.

    Have a great day ladies.

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hi Amazing,

    Excuse me here but *you* dragged my name and my words out into this thread. I will take issue with you whenever you do it and I will do it publicly. You call me out publicly and then DEMAND private replies? Um, no, I don't think so. If you have something Private to say to me, then by all means, e-mail me and I will reply privately as well.

    You said:
    Here are the rules:

    Um, did you forget you are no longer the BMOC at the KH or what? What makes you think *you* make the rules? You call me on my words publicly and then announce "rules" that you are to be addressed with rebuttals etc. privately? Sorry, homie don't play that.

    You also said:
    3. From here on out, if someone is not comfortable discussing with me on the public forum my behavior, then by all means, feel free to privately email me at [email protected] I will keep any such discussions confidential.

    Well I have no problem publicly responding to your public calling-outs of me. Did I give you the impression I was uncomfortable doing so? Then you are much mistaken.

    You said:
    5. I ask the same treatment toward me in return. If I am puzzled by something said to me or about me, I will follow the above - respectfully.

    Well the then do so. Why did you post this publicly if you feel this way? It is clear it is I you take issue with, why bring it to the board instead of e-mailing me? My mail is open, always is.

    Then you said:
    Email me off board.

    So just to make sure that this simple, dumb ol' girl has it straight, according to *your* rules, you can take issue with anyone you please, for as long as you please, publicly, but if they wish to reply it MUST be via-email? LOL You must be joking.

    Here are my *suggested* rules for YOU Amazing:

    1. You bring something out in public it will be addressed publicly.

    2. You want to discuss something privately e-mail me and I will reply privately.

    There you are, just two rules and I think they are pretty fair.

    Like I said before Amazing, the ball in in *your* court, I didn't say the scepter is in you hand. If you want peace then quit dragging my name and others you are still so angry at around the board and this sort of crap will stop. Your call. At this moment it is *you* who perpetuates it.

    Julie

    P.S. One more thing, you said: "I knew you couldn't resist." Oh you *knew* this did you??? You were actually inside our minds and knew, for a fact, that we would reply to your still dragging our names into every possible opportunity? I wonder where all those people who were so full of chastisement for me claiming to know what you were really saying are. Funny how it's ok for you to "read minds" but not others.....hmmmm.....something to this.....smacks of double standard to me.........(or baiting *aka "trolling"*, you're not trying to bait us are you Amazing???? )

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

    (Edited to add: Nice edit job Amazing, in the short time it took me to write my post you went in and did some major changes--as in constructing yourself a back-door to run out of. Oh you big brave man you!!)

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy Julie,

    3. From here on out, if someone is not comfortable discussing with me on the public forum my behavior, then by all means, feel free to privately email me at [email protected] I will keep any such discussions confidential. - amazing
    I believe Amazing was making the point by saying IF.....then he was fine with discussion on the open forum. However, IF the other person wasn't fine with that, THEN he would be glad to use e-mail for discussion.

    He was saying he was open to discussion either way.

    Howdy Amazing

    " ... but believe me those nuns masde sure I had reading comprehension skills. Easy to comprehend cowardly avoidance of addressing someone when called out. I also recognized inflammatory statements and words used to manipulate the emotions. You cleverly used all of the above, to little avail."
    I went through 12 years of nun teaching - and have appropriate reading comprehension skills also. I don't recall having ever learned in reading comprehension how to read cowardly avoidance. We learned how to comprehend the written word.

    However, the term "no comment" was usually the response we gave to nuns......not cowardliness - just common sense as they had long rulers in those days. Sister Rita Agnes (Franciscan nun 6 foot tall and fast!) taught me well. We thought carefully before we responded.

    Sister Rita Agnes was actually fast enough to chase me down the hall and catch me! in my senior year.....I played sports and she had that long black robe on........was she pissed.......

    waiting

    ps: I spent about a week in detention for that one.!

  • Julie
    Julie

    Morning Waiting,

    :I believe Amazing was making the point by saying IF.....then he was fine with discussion on the open forum. However, IF the other person wasn't fine with that, THEN he would be glad to use e-mail for discussion.

    You know, I would be inclined to believe this if it weren't for a couple of things.

    :Here are the rules:

    Amazing now makes the rules. Didn't you know that?

    :3. From here on out, if someone is not comfortable discussing with me on the public forum my behavior, then by all means, feel free to privately email me at [email protected] I will keep any such discussions confidential.

    I don't know about you Waiting but to me, this post/thread Amazing started is pretty much to/about me and what I have said to him. Did you ever get the impression I was not comfortable discusssing things publicly with him? To me this looks like an invitation to keep my rely private while he can publicly post as he pleases.

    :5. I ask the same treatment toward me in return. If I am puzzled by something said to me or about me, I will follow the above - respectfully.

    Again, since the obvious reason for this thread was to address me and my words, why didn't he follow his own advice here and e-mail me?? My mail is and always has been open. This is rather puzzling, or rather, contradictory.

    :Email me off board.

    Here's the clincher. No qualifiers, no "if you feel this or that...", simple "e-mail me off board". What does that say to you Waiting? It says to me, do not bother to address/rebut me publicly, "e-mail me off board" is what is says. Unconditionally.

    In closing sorry to hear you were stuck with such unpleasant nuns for teachers. I was very fortunate to have really nice ones. I feel for you though, mean nuns and crappy ob/gyns, you've had some bad breaks.

    Regards,
    Julie

    (Edited to add: I am getting a kick out the comments re: where does "no comment" translate into cowardice? LOL My question is when has Amazing *ever* said "No Comment"?????????)

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