Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    jhine2 days agoGosh fulltime ,you do take your study seriously !

    Yeah, OK! (grin) I'm probably on the serious side of the Serious versus Fun division. But, in the six years + years I've been at it, I've had the pleasure of wandering across the historical Asian landscape from east to west and back, from north to south and from past to present.

    Starting with the mindset, that each civilisation had its own unique "thought" (including spiritual beliefs), I have come to see how interconnected human "thought" really is.

    And, in contrast to 'western' thought, I've been able to spend time examining Asian thinking (India and East Asian) and to see it's own unique virtues.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Fulltime , have you found much in common between Eastern and Western religious thought , like the " do unto others " kinda thinking ? I would be interested in how much we have in common , not necessarily because of transfer of thinking but just because of our shared humanity .

    Jan

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    jhine

    3 days ago

    Fulltime , have you found much in common between Eastern and Western religious thought , like the " do unto others " kinda thinking ? I would be interested in how much we have in common , not necessarily because of transfer of thinking but just because of our shared humanity .

    Jan

    I suggest that the aspirations of our shared humanity are the basis of much religious and philosophical thinking. It comes across rather clearly in this youtube video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=415&v=2Ci613QcC5E


    Judeao/Christian teachings on love are NOT unique, a point that the above video makes.

    To illustrate, we can look to two of the great thinkers of ancient China, Kong zi (551-479 BCE)-(Confucius) and Mozi (470-391 BCE)

    Kong zi based his teachings on 'jen' (humanity) and Mo zi based his on the concept of righteousness. Which sound similar, and in some ways were, but in the field of human relationships there was a sharp divergence, (at least in the theory). Thus in Kong zi's thought, 'love' should embrace all, but must start with one's parents. Hence, his view of love had distinctions. Whereas Mozi taught a truly Universal love, (i.e.) with no distinctions. Mo zi once walked (so the story goes) for ten days and nights in an effort to dissuade the ruler of a small state from going to war with another state. (Mozi condemned wars).

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And possibly the Law code of Hammurabi, which starts on page 6 of this link, is another example:

    http://www.general-intelligence.com/library/hr.pdf,

    One example of Hammurabi's lawcode - quite a few copies have been recovered.

    Laws, need lawmakers/givers, so note the sculptured figures on another copy.


    So this may also an example of human intelligence working out rules that assist in preventing chaos by defining human behaviour.

    The Wikepedia entry (from where those two illustrations were found) notes:

    Earlier collections of laws include the Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (c. 2050 BC), the Laws of Eshnunna (c. 1930 BC) and the codex of Lipit-Ishtar of Isin (c. 1870 BC), while later ones include the Hittite laws, the Assyrian laws, and Mosaic Law.[10] These codes come from similar cultures in a relatively small geographical area, and they have passages which resemble each other.[11]

    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

    And, I guess it will come as no surprise, that a surviving copy of Hammurabi's code (dated to circa 1700BCE) has been found. Wikipedia comments:

    In July, 2010, archaeologists reported that a fragmentary Akkadian cuneiform tablet was discovered at Tel Hazor, Israel, containing a c. 1700 BC text that was said to be partly parallel to portions of the Hammurabi code. The Hazor law code fragments are currently being prepared for publication by a team from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.[20]

    So was the Mosaic code original, or was it based on previous models. Difficult to prove either way.

    Another common concept that I've noted is the need to train children. Rather obvious for humans, but again the Biblical versions are not unique.

    So clearly, certain human conditions/problems seem to produce common reactions. But for me, the most interesting aspects of human interaction is when we can find evidence of a syncretic reaction to an interface between different thought systems.

    Here's an example:

    Looking at this image of Buddhist statue (dated to first/second century CE), what do we notice? I saw nothing special until it was pointed out to me that the robe clothing the Buddha is Greek. The statue comes from modern day Afghanistan, an area conquered by Alexander (the great) and incorporated into the successor Seleucid Empire. Thus bringing Hellenistic influences into Buddhism.

    In this sculpture:

    Dated to second century CE, we see a Hellenistic 'Hercules' figure as a protector of the Buddha.

    When Buddhism hit China, (starting about the last century BCE) there was little reaction at first, but eventually we can trace the interaction and reactions of arguments between Buddhist practioners and those who held to Confucianism and Daoism.

    And, an interesting development in Buddhism (no time/space to go into detail) was the development, likely in the first century BCE, of Mahayana Buddhism, with the idea that if you called on the name of one of the Buddhas, he would take you to his western paradise, when you died.

    Descriptions of the western paradise are very similar to the "New Jerusalem" in the closing chapters of the Revelation.

    Interesting, isnt it?







  • jhine
    jhine

    Gosh ,thank you for a very comprehensive reply to my question ! Yes it was very interesting . Strip away the cultural differences , clothes , food etc and human beings really are very alike .

    Jan

  • SimonSays
    SimonSays

    This is what happens when people begin to over reach and quantify words. The concept of linguistics is to reform language to become understandable for the commonwealth of its own society and culture.

    If you haven’t noticed, certain words while equal in spelling have a different definition to cultures that apply it to conform to their own understanding.

    HOMONYMS are words that sound alike but have different meanings. Homophones are a type of homonym that also sound alike and have different meanings, but have different spellings. HOMOGRAPHS are words that are spelled the same but have different meanings.

    So far, there is about 900 ways to define the common word GOD.

    http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/namesofgod.html

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/El/el.html

    The following example illustrates how far the concept of GOD goes. Exodus 34:14

    14-- for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—

    New International Version
    do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    New Living Translation
    you must worship no other gods, for the LORD, whose very name is Jealous, is a God who is jealous about his relationship with you.

    English Standard Version
    (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

    New American Standard Bible
    -- for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--

    King James Bible
    For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    You are never to bow down to another god because Yahweh, being jealous by nature, is a jealous God."

    International Standard Version
    indeed, you are not to bow down in worship to any other god, because the LORD's name is Jealous—he's a jealous God—

    http://disinfo.com/2011/03/god%E2%80%99s-name-is-%E2%80%9Cjealous%E2%80%9D/

    Does this mean that GOD’s name is jealous or he is a GOD who is jealous? By definition it’s an oxymoron if you chose to view it that way.

    In the original Hebrew, the key words in this verse are shem and qanna’. According to one of the standard reference works in this area — A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Hebrew Bible by James Strong’s — Shem is a noun meaning “name.” One of its specific denotations is “the Name (as designation of God).” The word qanna’ means “jealous” and is applied only to God.

    Other English translations say the same basic thing as the King James Version. The New International Version gives it as: “Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” The English Standard Version phrases it parenthetically: “(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God).” The New International Readers Version gives God a more relaxed feel: “Do not worship any other god. I am a jealous God. In fact, my name is Jealous.”

    The point of God’s name then becomes only relevant to those that wish to view this deity as real. Aside from that, it’s just another comparative word in literature between God and Gods. The question then should be, who is the GOD of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac. Is it one God or many as suggested by polytheism?

    Monotheism definition. A belief in one god. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all monotheistic religions. Then it would be objective rather than subjective.

    Objective: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

    Literature, in its broadest sense, is any written work; etymologically the term derives from Latin literature/litteratura "writing formed with letters", although some definitions include spoken or sung texts.

    After that, then you have the many ways the name of God was ratified through the ages. So spinning it every which way does not transcend to its original intent, and it's original text of a single GOD.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    jhine7 hours agoGosh ,thank you for a very comprehensive reply to my question ! Yes it was very interesting . Strip away the cultural differences , clothes , food etc and human beings really are very alike .
    Jan

    Sometimes, there can be marked differences. It seems fair to suggest that the earliest traces of religious thought indicate that shamanism was the original religious thinking. The shaman could be seen as the gate through which the spirit world could be contacted. The shaman therefore, could be seen as the predecessor of all religious leaders, (including elders (grin). We can study active versions of shamanism in may places in the world.

    Tibet, where a syncretistic version of Buddhism developed between Indian Buddhism and the shamanistic beliefs of native Tibetans. I've no time at present to develop the idea, but essentially in many forms of shamanism, the spirits are everywhere, in special rocks, streams hills/mountains etc. Tibetan buddhism may have taken that idea over and saw the whole land as a battle between the original spirits (demons) and the guardians of the Buddhas.

    In Japan, shintoism is a shamanistic religion, with spirits everywhere, I've taken the explanations below verbatim from a Japanese tourist guide. It seems to describe shintoism quite well.

    Shinto does not have a founder nor does it have sacred scriptures like the sutras or the bible. Propaganda and preaching are not common either, because Shinto is deeply rooted in the Japanese people and traditions.
    "Shinto gods" are called kami. They are sacred spirits which take the form of things and concepts important to life, such as wind, rain, mountains, trees, rivers and fertility. Humans become kami after they die and are revered by their families as ancestral kami. The kami of extraordinary people are even enshrined at some shrines. The Sun Goddess Amaterasu is considered Shinto's most important kami.
    Some prominent rocks are worshiped as kami.
    In contrast to many monotheist religions, there are no absolutes in Shinto. There is no absolute right and wrong, and nobody is perfect. Shinto is an optimistic faith, as humans are thought to be fundamentally good, and evil is believed to be caused by evil spirits. Consequently, the purpose of most Shinto rituals is to keep away evil spirits by purification, prayers and offerings to the kami.
    Shinto shrines are the places of worship and the homes of kami. Most shrines celebrate festivals(matsuri) regularly in order to show the kami the outside world. Please read more on our special information pages about shrines and festivals.

    Japanese shamanism was inherited from the Japanese ancestors from the mainland, where we can still find in the Siberian tribes, something that may be akin to the original shamanism. This is so interesting as we have a method of comparison. Around 18,000 years ago some of those Siberian people crossed into North America and proceeded to colonise both North and South America. They brought their native shamanism with them, so comparisons can be made.

    For later changes within Asia may I recommend Richard Folz's book, "Religions of the Silk Road-Premodern Patterns of Globalisation."

    In everything, though, I believe we should take the advice of Chinese thinker, Zheng Yi (1033-1107 CE):

    "A student must first of all learn to doubt."

    and

    "Follow the path of inquiry and study."

    So armed with an inquiring mind, that is prepared to doubt conclusions one always has a mind open to change.

    The very last thing the JW overlords want their adherents to have.

    Of course, Christians may argue that they also follow the path of inquiry and study, but as simplistic simon has posted, you must do so in"faith."

    There is no room for doubt in simplisticSimon's world view.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    This is what happens when people begin to over reach and quantify words. The concept of linguistics is to reform language to become understandable for the commonwealth of its own society and culture.

    I can only imagine why an apologist for the WT and the Bible would bristle at the idea of quantifying words and meanings. Actually, I can't only imagine. It's so you can pretend to know things while spouting woo and pretending you know something.

  • SimonSays
    SimonSays

    Therefore mimicking the first century Christian by following Jesus example. Isn’t it always the way Viviane? But yes I do pity you, don’t worry.

    Theology is not heighten by secular understanding of a textbook. True theology is not understood any better other than spiritual enlightenment. This is a personal journey and achievement. Confusing theology by comparing other propositions in different faiths, reverses the notion of true knowledge.

    Ex-Witnesses by far that never understood theology and all its element’s involved within make precisely that claim. Higher education has no substantive claim especially when it comes to Christian Theology. I.e. I don’t need my PhD to realize biblical truth. There will never be a comparison between secular knowledge of the bible to bible knowledge itself.

    Luke 2:46-52New International Version (NIV)

    46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

    49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house? 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

    51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

    A true Christians understands bible principles by faith as you stated, such as 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 to not allow those that pretended to know the truth but never had it to be subjective verses to be objective to bible principles as Jesus did without being trained in secular knowledge but through Gods holy spirit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_theology

    1 Corinthians 4 New International Version (NIV)

    The Nature of True Apostleship

    4 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

    2 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)

    False Teachers and Their Destruction

    20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Therefore mimicking the first century Christian by following Jesus example. Isn’t it always the way Viviane? But yes I do pity you, don’t worry.

    Mimicking someone who thought slavery, rape and genocide? Yet you pity me?

    Christians are weird. Please don't ever stand close to me, I don't want to get any of your pity on me.

    Theology is not heighten by secular understanding of a textbook. True theology is not understood any better other than spiritual enlightenment. This is a personal journey and achievement. Confusing theology by comparing other propositions in different faiths, reverses the notion of true knowledge.

    Yet millions of other theist would disagree with you. I wonder where you got the hubris and arrogance to speak for "true" theology and theologians.

    Ex-Witnesses by far that never understood theology and all its element’s involved within make precisely that claim. Higher education has no substantive claim especially when it comes to Christian Theology. I.e. I don’t need my PhD to realize biblical truth. There will never be a comparison between secular knowledge of the bible to bible knowledge itself

    Yes, we've known for quite a while that the dumber you are, the more devoted to your faith you are.

    A true Christians understands bible principles by faith as you stated, such as 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 to not allow those that pretended to know the truth but never had it to be subjective verses to be objective to bible principles as Jesus did without being trained in secular knowledge but through Gods holy spirit.

    True Christians? Again, you are arbiter of who is a "true" Christian and who isn't? Tell me, when did Jesus return to earth to bestow this honorific upon you as Judge and Arbiter of the Dumberest?

  • SimonSays
    SimonSays

    I guess it’s the same arrogant mystical being that placed you in charge of thinking your wisdom is above everyone elses, Demigod, but keep telling it to the person you see in the mirror, perhaps the reflection will answer you back one day or worship you. Maybe fulltime student will buy into what you’re selling. If this person goes for it, let that person know the London Bridge is for sale also. It’s ironic since Ex-witnesses say they left the organization for the same reason, brainwashing, and then you press upon others to follow your train of thought as exceptional. Disturbing how the mind works. Interesting concept, brainwashed only to be brainwashed by someone else equates free will.

    Demigod:

    A being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.

    Matthew 15:13-14

    Context: What Defiles a Man?

    13. But He answered and said, "Every plant which my heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14. Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.

    Parallel Commentaries

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    15:10-20 Christ shows that the defilement they ought to fear, was not from what entered their mouths as food, but from what came out of their mouths, which showed the wickedness of their hearts. Nothing will last in the soul but the regenerating graces of the Holy Spirit; and nothing should be admitted into the church but what is from above; therefore, whoever is offended by a plain, seasonable declaration of the truth, we should not be troubled at it. The disciples ask to be better taught as to this matter. Where a weak head doubts concerning any word of Christ, an upright heart and a willing mind seek for instruction. It is the heart that is desperately wicked
    , Jer 17:9, for there is no sin in word or deed, which was not first in the heart.

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