Are atheists less imaginative about the unknown?

by sabastious 140 Replies latest jw friends

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  DagothUr

  The whole paradigm is wrong. We are not less imaginative than a believer. We are less inclined to "have faith". We are less gullible. I can imagine quite a lot about how the Universe was made. But I don't live my entire life according to the fruits of mine or someone else's imagination.

  Maybe there are much more advanced civilizations in the Universe than us. Perhaps advanced enough to bend the very structure of the Universe itself. Compared to us, these civilizations are gods. If a chicken could think, she would probably be amazed of our scientific progress and consider us to be gods. But until seen evidence of their existance, these "gods" do not exist. We are all limited by our senses, not just atheists. In any case, it is clear to me that the God of the Bible is nothing but fiction. A fairytale character.
• 

  bohm

  vampire, i think your analogy is flawed because it misrepresent the atheist position by endowing them with reasoning which only worked in the middle ages. Consider your analogy applied to God and where you make the astronomers (atheists) say:

  The astronomer would say "we have studied the sky all our lives, and we cannot find any such planet. It is not there, you are a fool."

  this is where the analogy fall apart and misrepresent atheism. The proper response would be:

  The astronomer would say "That sound interesting, what evidence do you build this assertion on? where should we point our telescopes?"

  now your analogy can continue along two tracks: You could either stomp the ground and demand they take the existence of an unobserved earth-sized planet on faith, or you could begin to explain your evidence and give them a research program for validating the existence of the planet, which would reveal you was really talking about earth in a heliocentric world-view.
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  trevor

  DagothUr Your observations make sense to me.

  The first humans had no idea how the world came to be; why thunder & lightning, volcanoes and earthquakes occurred. They attributed these events to invisible humans that became known as gods. In time, those that believed in gods proudly wore a label that said ‘theist.’ Those that were not convinced were automatically labelled ‘a-theist.’ The rest is history.

  All people are on a journey through life on planet earth and are looking for answers. Imagining something, then setting out to see if it exists is a common scientific method. Often imagination leads to new discoveries.

  Once one decides to wear a badge that says, ‘Theist,’ they are declaring that they have found the answer to the mystery of the life on earth. A god is responsible and he will take care of everything so long as they love and obey him. No further imagination is required. Their search is at an end. They are, in their own words, ‘saved.’ Those who are still searching for the answers to the mystery of life need to employ their imagination in order to continue their search.

  Personally, I prefer not to wear a badge of any kind. The knowledge I have gleaned in my short time on this planet is so incomplete and inadequate, that to wear a badge stating my ‘position’ would make me look very foolish.

  I am not an ‘eist’ of any kind - Just a seeker of truth, looking among the seaweed for profound answers. That takes a hell of a lot of imagination. My belief is that I will die, so I am unlikely to be disappointed and things should work out very neatly.
• 

  tec

  I don't think atheists and theists are any less imaginative than the other. Faith is the difference between them. Other differences come with that territory, but I don't think the 'imagination' is one of those differences.

  The first humans had no idea how the world came to be; why thunder & lightning, volcanoes and earthquakes occurred. They attributed these events to invisible humans that became known as gods.

  How? I don't think any human has ever conceived of something that is not based on something real in their experiences. If there is no god, or spiritual realm at all... then how did these first humans conceive of it?

  Try and think of a concept that is completely alien to your existence and experiences. I've tried, and I can't. It makes my brain hurt to try, lol. And I have a fantastic imagination, btw. But it is still limited to my own experiences and knowledge of the world around me. I cannot invent something completely outside my realm of existence.

  Can anyone here? I am curious.

  Tammy
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  trevor

  Tammy: Try and think of a concept that is completely alien to your existence and experiences.

  Ancient man(this term includes women) had invented nothing new. He did not understand what caused thunder, so he looked at what he could see around him and used his imagination to attribute physical characteristics to the puzzling phenomena.

  “Generally good-natured, Thor had a hot temper, and his anger was dreadful to behold. He was a fierce enemy of the frost giants, the foes of the Norse gods. When people heard thunder and saw lightning in the sky, they knew that Thor was fighting these evil giants.”

  There are thousands of mythological gods but all took the form of a human or animal, often a mixture of both. They were a mental projection of man’s reality into the sky. We now know what causes thunder and lightening. We also know that these mythological gods never really existed.

  That does not prove that no god or gods exist, just that man's early attempts to understand his world was flawed.
• 

  tec

  But how was the spiritual conceived out of the physical? If there is no spiritual anything, then how did we as people come up with that concept? It would be like trying to imagine something completely outside the realm of one's existence? If that can be done, then we should be able to think of something new, outside our realm of existence now.

  I don't think I'm very good at explaining what I mean. Bohm understands what I'm talking about - though he may not agree - but it took me many attempts to make my point clear, lol :).

  Tammy
• 

  NomadSoul

  Tec,

  This is how It might've gone down. This is a diary of an ancient man that had learned to fish.

  "I went out fishing this morning and decided to go for a swim. I learned that if I hold my breath I could go deeper into the ocean and see all the creatures that live down there. It's another world that I can only experience for just a few moments. I started thinking about the birds that fly like the fish swim in the sea. I can see sky and the clouds but can only see so far. I wonder if there's another world up there, just like the world down here. I can feel the wind but can not see it. I wonder if there's beings up there that are like the air and can not be seen...."
• 

  tec

  That was really good, Nomad. Thanks.
• 

  SweetBabyCheezits

  But how was the spiritual conceived out of the physical? If there is no spiritual anything, then how did we as people come up with that concept? It would be like trying to imagine something completely outside the realm of one's existence?

  www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVbnciQYMiM

  If that can be done, then we should be able to think of something new, outside our realm of existence now.

  The list is endless. Works of fiction are released by the truckload every day.

  Who was the first person to imagine time travel into the past? But, alas, that person just took something we're familiar with (the experience of time and present memory) and tweaked it, right? Well, an invisible, powerful man in the sky is no different. It was the combination of things that were thought to be understood with a giant dose of mystery.

  • A man must be responsible because men are the tribal leaders. (Capital "Him".)
  • He makes the earth shake and lights flash in the sky so he must be really powerful.
  • He makes crazy things happen in other places at the same time so he must exist everywhere.
  • But I can't see the source of the lightning and earthquakes so, like the air we breath, we can't see Him either.

  I don't see how that takes much imagination.

  EDIT: Oops, didn't see Nomad's post until I posted this one. Good post.
• 

  tec

  Who was the first person who thought of travelling back in time? But, alas, that person just took something we're familiar with (the experience of time) and tweaked it, right?

  Yes. That is the problem I have had about all examples from fiction coming out of imagination.

  I can follow what Nomad said, though. I can see it - even though I know that not everyone would have had access to that particular example, but perhaps something similar. That would not have been a different realm that they believed in in this example, but rather a realm outside of their reach and sight. But it was a really good analogy to mull over.

  Tammy