This is very interesting idea, I was just thinking about the same concept today. I’m an ex-dub and having gone through my own journey to seek knowledge I wound up with my own blend of outlook, mostly consisting of Gnostic type mindsets. I’d like to agree with Tec, “Indoctrination is different than belief in a creator.” I also think Unshackled nails it on the head here, “Before anyone could start to believe in a spirit creator, someone would have to come up with the idea. Would someone? And if so, would the people of this forum eventually end up in their same stance as now?” I theorize that with the lack indoctrination someone, somewhere would eventually ask questions. We would eventually ponder the why and how of the ecosystem, animals, plants and stars. This simple wonder is what eventually leads to the formation of religious ideology. The outcome, I believe, would be the same in that “religious beliefs” would evolve, but you would just be hitting the reset button with amnesia and the specifics of those beliefs would turn out to be something new or different than what we have in today’s world. I don’t think this is a debate on rational thought vs. irrationality, those concepts are still self-created, even the scientific method is a human concept communicated and agreed on by human created language. The trouble is we are locked inside our own minds and no matter the level of rational thought we still ponder how things came to be. I think we have a tendency to wonder about it because, unlike our language, clothes, buildings, and our science, we didn’t create this world around us. So ultimately we would still have groups of believers and non believers trying to find harmony, in short only the explanations would change.
Theism or Atheism? If you awoke with amnesia tomorrow...
by unshackled 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Giordano
I was raised a Catholic until my slightly deranged mother decided that being a JW was the way to go. Now it should be noted I was as was my mother already indoctrinated in Christian beliefs just as my Jewish friends in their beliefs. There was one road for a born in and that is a predisposition to follow the religion of ones parents. Now you might become a true believer or a half baked believer but the dye was set.
Fast forward I am now married , my wife and I have left the JW and decide we can live comfortably without a belief in a god. A few years later our son is born. We do not discuss god other then in a comprehensive discussion about religion, history etc. He grows up with out any interest in a personal god. Doesn't attend a church. While growing up we decided that church attendance and belief was going to be his choice. He is a decent moral person and a wonderful father. My JW sister give us her ultimate compliment "I have no idea how you raised such a wonderful person without the bible and the 'truth'"........and she didn't.
Our son and his wife are raising their children without church or god.
So my answer would be that if we simply forgot that we were in a religion or not but were otherwise educated we would not be inclined to become believers as that leap of faith is basically unnatural. Without being predisposed our natural intelligence fills in the gaps. That we have to be led there as children for it to stick or be highly influenced by a loving wonderful person who had the gift of persuasion or a dominating Ahole who had the 'gift of terror.
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NomadSoul
@ Unshackled
Well I think if that's the situation most humans would not go back to Theism, if we the knowledge of the world was still intact. You wouldn't have much influence from your parents.
But of course it's just a hypothesis. No way to test it... or is there?! lol
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FlyingHighNow
Theism came from somewhere.
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nicolaou
I've seen, along with a group of eyewitnesses, unseen beings move things about a room after a seance
How can you have seen something unseen? What were the 'things' that moved? Iv'e no doubt you saw something FHN and I don't believe for one moment that you are trying to decieve us but isn't it possible that you were decieved? Was the medium being paid to perform this seance? Could a few simple parlour tricks to impress the participants enhance his/her status and perhaps boost business?
Ultimately, all you saw was some objects move unaided - a trick most illusionists could pull off with ease, especially given an audience that is already receptive, primed and willing to believe.
Why leap to a supernatural explanation?
Theism came from somewhere.
Agreed. But again, why look for the answer in the paranormal/supernatural/metaphysical?
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Black Sheep
It's not a subject I'm interested in.
I guess if I woke up with amnesia, I still wouldn't be interested.
I have better things to do with my short time on this planet than bother my head with such trivia.
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FlyingHighNow
How can you have seen something unseen?
I've seen, along with a group of eyewitnesses, unseen beings move things about a room after a seance
Kind sir, you have misread what I said. Maybe I should have used another comma? But I kind of think you're trying to play here, aren't you? I re-emphasized for you so it will make more sense.
I'veseen, along with a group of eyewitnesses, unseen beings move things about a room after a seance
Now, I will answer your questions. And as I said, even I will be skeptical if I didn't see something my self. It's human nature to be in disbelief about something of this nature if you didn't see or experience it your self.
How can you have seen something unseen?
Didn't say I saw the unseen. I something unseen move something seen. You can see the wind blowing the grass. The grass is moving. You feel the wind. You don't see the wind. but you do see the grass moving. Something unseen is moving the seen grass blades.
What were the 'things' that moved?
I'll get to that.
Iv'e no doubt you saw something FHN and I don't believe for one moment that you are trying to decieve us but isn't it possible that you were decieved?
No. You'll understand why I say so when you read the experience.
Was the medium being paid to perform this seance?
This is interesting. You'll see why when you read what happened. Paid medium? No. The medium was me. I was ten or eleven at the time. The seance was for fun when I had a few friends over for a slumber party. We were having seances all the time at parties.
Could a few simple parlour tricks to impress the participants enhance his/her status and perhaps boost business?
LoL.
Why leap to a supernatural explanation?
Here's the experience.
When I was around ten or eleven, around 1969-1970, it was popular to have seances. My girlscout leader even let us have one at a weekend camp in.
We always did the seances in the same way. And until the last one we did, they always seemed to be failures. We'd sit in a circle with a candle burning. The "medium", would tell the story of a woman we called Lady of the Tracks. She had lived during the 1800's and her husband had killed her then chopped her up and buried her under the railroad tracks. Then the "medium" would summon the lady and begin to ask for signs of her presence. Like I said, nothing would happen at these seances.
I asked my mother if I could have a slumber party. And I asked her if we could have a seance. She said yes and yes. She let me buy a star shaped glass candle holder and a white candle.
The night of the party came. We listened to records and danced. We played games. We talked and did a lot of laughing, as kids will. Then the girls asked to have the seance. We had the seance with me sitting as the medium. As usual we got no results. Oh well, we tried.
The next morning, we were listening to records while mom cooked breakfast. We were in my bedroom, where we did the seance. We were discussing how the seances never work.
Now, this was January. And even in southeast Louisiana, it can get pretty cold in January. We had the record Love is Blue playing. I looked up to see my curtains moving. My brother Scot was in the room with Karen, Jane, Judy and me. Five people. I called their attention to the curtains. We all saw them moving. My window was tightly closed. The heat register/vent was across the 13 foot square room and the heat was cycled off, no blowing from the vents, we checked. No draft from the window.
I had a confederate flag on a stick , bought at the circus, lying in the window sill. The stick was about 2 - 2 1/2 feet long. The flag was probably 14" by 10". It could have been a little bigger. The stick was along the sill. The flag, with a semi stiff, cheap fabric was hanging down against the wall.
We could see the window curtains moving. Not blowing, but moving. There was no draft and the movement was very strange looking. We all jumped up and stood there watching them move. A line of five kids standing a few feet from the window, watching. We all held hands and I asked, "Lady of the tracks, if that's you, give us a sign. Move that flag." Now, in my mind I wanted the flag to big picked up by the stick and waved. But this unseen being could not read my mind. It took me literally and it moved just the fabric flag, leaving the stick lying still along the sill.
The flag took on a different level of stiffness and it slowly arched up, like you would curl your index finger. We are like, "Oh man, did we really see what we think we just saw?" So I asked again: "Lady of the tracks, if that's you, give us a sign. Move that flag." Again, the flag became animated and it slowly arched up from the wall like you would curl your finger or an animal would curl its tail. It really kind of wobbled as it arched. Then I asked it a third time and it arched the same way a third time. After the third time, we suddenly realized what were witnessing and you've never seen kids move so fast in your life. We ran to my mother, who of course did not believe us. She made us go back into my room.
When we got back, we kept playing Love is Blue over again because we loved the song. And we lit the seance candle. The candle flame would grow to be about a six inches tall. It would move very strangely and give off a lot of black smoke. That would stop when the record would stop. As soon as we'd play the record again, the candle would flame up.
My room had a chilled, eery feeling after that for a long time. So I would not go in there unless I needed something like clothing or a toy. I'd run in and run out. One day I walked in and I could sense this presence had given up and left.
That is when I moved back in and began to play in my room again. I loved my room.
Now, all of us are adults. And we, all five of us, remember this experience very clearly.
Looking back on it, I know the being could understand English, but could not read my mind. It did not try to hurt us, though unintentionally it scared us half to death. It stayed in my room for months until it finally gave up on me coming back to play and sleep.
Supernatural? When an intelligent being obeys your commands to move something, even if you can't see or hear the being, what else would you call it but supernatural? You called it supernatural. I didn't.
If you told me this experience, and I had never seen or experienced anything like it, I'd be skeptical, too. But if you saw that flag move on command three times in a row. And if you saw exactly how it wobbled and slowly arched up, bending in the middle, you'd be the one relating this experience, down to this day.
I can tell you that we never had a seance again. The candle continued to have a reaction to Love is Blue when lit until it was burned completely gone. This happened when we would bring the candle and record to other people's houses. We all still talk about this experience, 40 plus years later. No one got any profit for this. We just got the hell scared out us and we learned a valuable lesson, don't mess with the "spirit world." None of us were JW's. None of us had been forbidden to play with Ouija boards or have seances. Up until then our seances had never been successful. We don't know why that one conjured up something, but we do know it DID conjure up something.
I know people who haven't had such experiences will find it hard to fathom or believe. I'm okay with that.
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FlyingHighNow
I just found this. I wonder why Kurt says having a seance was a big mistake.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/current/180756/1/Have-you-ever-attended-a-Seance
kurtbethel Re: Have you ever attended a Seance? posted ~ a year ago (8/28/2009)
Post 1601 of 2658
Since 5/20/2007Conducted one. Big mistake.
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FlyingHighNow
BTTT. Wondering what happened to Nicolaou.
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PublishingCult
FHN, I believe that you and your girlfriends saw things move that morning, however, when you make such a claim it is best to report exactly what was observed without adding any interpretations of what it might be. There is a distinction between evidence [be it anecdotal, scientific, or otherwise], and interpretations of that evidence.
What do you mean when you say it was an "unseen being"?
Could you please define "unseen being"?