May you all have peace! Sorry, but I've caught a fairly decent cold (or something) and was kind of "down for the count" yesterday. Rather than go back a couple/few pages, though, I'll start here, if that's okay (unless, of course, I miss something someone wants me to specifically respond to, which I will be more than happy to do). Dear Abaddon, I realize you're addressing dear tec (peace to you, both!), but I think I can probably answer your... ummmmm... questions... just a tad bit better than she (if that's okay with you both, of course). I have to warn you, though: you asked for it, so it's a bit long. Now, then:
Tec Re. your comment about attribution; AGuest wrote those words HERSELF in the OP, and later claimed there were a verbatim quote from the programme.
My apologies. I thought it was clear from what I posted that it was from the program. Again, I stated that I was personally surprised at what was stated. Please, by ALL means, find the program (it was on "Nova") and view it for yourself. I could not remember the name of the specific scientist/archeologist/paleontologist who made the statement, so I didn't put it in quotes. But it did indeed come from the program, from the statement made by a scientist/archeologist/paleontologist... which reference to what other scientists/archeologists/paleontologists know. There was/is no benefit in me stating that someone said something they didn't, dear Abaddon: the program is viewable by anyone and I KNOW someone here would have called me on it if I were lying. So...
That is what I take issue with. If a student at my University did that, they would receive a Fail and have a case of minor infringement of the rules on citation and referencing noted on their file. No, this is not University, but if someone is having a discussion about science then getting their facts right is kind of a good idea.
This isn't university, though, is it? Rather, it's merely a community posting board where folks of all walks of life... and educational backgrounds... come to discuss, comment, share, etc. To try and hold the board to a "university" standard is... absurd. Not to say that I haven't attended university; I did... and I have a JD, dear one. However, what kind of sense would it make for ME to hold YOU and others to, say, the "standards" of legal writing? You're taking issue because you wish to take issue. You could just have easily viewed the program yourself to SEE if what I stated was accurate. What kind of sense does it make for me to say "scientists/archeologists/paleontologists think/believe/say..." or anything along that lines... unless I heard a scientist/archeologist/paleontologist SAY? I did. On the show I first referenced.
Re. your comment about forms of evidence; we are talking about scientific evidence, which anything spiritual lacks. Thus me borrowing the legal term of hear-say to highlight this. Doesn't mean I am couching the rest of my argument in legal terms though, as were talking science, not law.
Oh, now, wait. You think others should conform to "university" standards when sharing info, but you're immune from the same standard in a legal format? You can borrow a legal term in one instance, but don't need to "couch the rest of [your] argument" in legal terms? Can you spell "hypocrisy"? Do you know what that means? It means holding others to a standard you won't even hold yourself to. Do you SEE?
And you providing more details of Shelly's story is interesting, and illustrates nicely how these tales build in the telling. She makes no mention of a medical second opinion, just of voices in her head, refusing medical treatment for her son, and him recovering anyway.
Shelby simply summarized the event, dear one. I have told the story here, in great detail, on more than one occasion. Apparently, your "university" experience is causing you to be suspicious of things where there is absolutely NO need. A simple, "I didn't get that from the account," would have sufficed, rather than assuming that dear tec... or I... were making things up.
If she had said 'if didn't make sense to me so I asked for a second opinion' I would have lauded her.
Why would I said that? Oh, wait, I get it: because that would have made sense to YOU; would have been what YOU would have done. But that is NOT what occurred. I shared what DID occur. I marvel that SO many would rather be lied to... than hear the TRUTH... even if the truth doesn't make sense to them. No wonder religion... and other "beliefs"... have the hold they do. Lies... make sense. Of COURSE, they do. We LOVE the lie. Look at media, advertising, the world around us. We "see" what we WANT to see... and close our eyes to the rest. Why IS that? Because the "rest" doesn't comport with our personal paradigms. Sorry, dear one, but I related what occurred, virtually exactly.
As you have shown, her omission of vital detail makes it look like she is less than honest or more than forgetful. I just don;t buy it being a condensed version of the event as the details are far too important.
Then perhaps you should exercise your... ummmmmm... finger... and go in search of the full story. It is here, on this board... in more than one place. Perfectly preserved. I have no doubt that your "university" experience requires you to know how to research a matter... and that you are frequently called upon to do so. No different here.
I did catered for what you now informed me happened in my response (option 3); different set of medical professionals yes, but a second opinion is not divine intervention but sound practice in some cases.
Okay, let's talk about that "second opinion." In fact, let's go over the entire event (which should be unnecessary as it's beyond the scope of this thread. But since I started the thread, and since you feel it within your... ummmm... "intellectual right" to attack tec AND take issue with my account, let's do it):
I first realized that "something" was "wrong" with my 10-year-old son when, after refusing to go out and play after school, I had him get in bed with me that night and when I touched him, his skin was "burning". I took his temperature: 104 degrees. So, I had my ex go get Popsicles and 7-Up. I gave him a cool bath and got the temp down to 101. I thought he had the flu or a virus. When he temp was 104 again in the morning, I took him to the ER. They took his temp (with an ear gauge), said it was 101 and that since he had a "low grade" fever, he probably had a virus. They said that if it wasn't gone in 10-11 days, to bring him back as it wasn't a virus. To make this part of the long story short, we took him to back to the ER a total of 6 times... because by MY thermometer, his temp kept at around 104. Their's, however, kept registering around 101. So, they kept sending him home.
Around the 10 th day we took him to the ER again, because his temp was 104.6. The doctor on duty took his temp (again, with the ear gauge) and it registered 101.6. She said, "You folks keep saying his temp is 104. What are you taking his temp with?" and I told her a mercury thermometer. She sent for one (which took SOME time to find!), but when it came she didn't know how to read it. An orderly did, however, and it registered "104.6." So, NOW, they thought, okay, more than 10 days... something is going on. They send him home with an order for a "GI" series the next day.
We took him for the GI (upper and lower) and the results showed "something" in his abdominal cavity that looked like "air bubbles." They diagnosis? Gas in his stomach. Ummmmm... aren't we looking at OUTSIDE of his stomach?, I asked. Uh, duh... yes, we guess so... now that you mention it, we've never seen anything like this. We need to have "someone" take a look and we'll get back to you. So, we went home.
A couple days later I had to leave for SF for a week-long certification exam. On the 4th day I received a call from my ex that my son was being admitted and that I had to come home asap. Apparently, his temp had reach 105 and my ex had taken him back to the ER. While they were hemming and hawing, a pediatric surgeon came through and made the comment, "Haven't I seen this kid here before, like 3 or 4 times already? What's going on?" and after reading my son's chart, HE ordered the admission.
So, I arrive and they schedule an ultrasound for the next day. During that "test" I knew "something" was "wrong" when the technician abruptly left and a doctor came in to finish the reading. So, I asked. At first they weren't going to tell me anything, but I persisted and finally the doctor said that there was a "mass"... approximately the size of a "football": about 8 inches long and 4 inches wide. He said he couldn't say what it was - that they needed to do a CT scan. So, okay.
The scan was scheduled for the next morning, but my son couldn't get through it (they missed the vein and pumped the fluid into his tissue, "burning" him, so they had to stop!). So they rescheduled for the morning of the day after. When it was done, though, I knew that the results were going to be "bad" because no one came to tell me what they were... until about 11pm that night. I was taken into a fully padded room to hear the "results." (This was because, after giving me the diagnosis, the doctor told me, "Go ahead and cry, to be angry. It's okay to let it out.")
Before the doctor started speaking, however, I heard "They are going to tell you it's cancer. It is NOT cancer." So, okay. I believed the voice; it was not cancer. But that's exactly what the doctor said. He said that there were three (3) possibilities: a welm's tumor (but they ruled that out because such a tumor could be readily felt when the abdomen is pressed on, and they felt nothing); an abcess (but they ruled that out because an abcess is "fluid" and would change its shape when the body is turned in different directions, and this did not change); or cancer. Their diagnosis was that my son had an abdomen FULL of cancer and that they had to operate immediately.
Of course, I didn't cry. I was quite calm, actually. I had heard what I heard... and I believed it. I told the doctor, "He doesn't have cancer," which pissed him off. I mean, he was really upset. Sort of that "I know you think you know your child, but I'm the doctor and I say..." thing. But I held my ground: my son doesn't have cancer.
And then the doctor asked me "just how difficult" was I going to be. At first I thought, "Huh? Difficult? What..." and then I understood. I said, "Oh, you mean whether I'm going to allow you to give him blood." And he said, "Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Cancer is always a bloody surgery and given how much we think your son has, we think he is going to need a LOT of blood." He said that he would TRY not to have to use blood, but simply could not promise me that, given the amount of cancer that was in my son. I told him, sorry, but that I couldn't allow it and there could be no blood in the operating room.
Now, please note, dear Abaddon; I didn't have a problem with my son taking blood. I did, however, have a problem with stumbling an entire congregation of people who would never be able to understand how I, someone who professed to be "anointed", could allow my son to be given blood. (No, I had not partaken, yet, but I had confessed that I believed I SHOULD to the elders... who, of course, threw confidentiality out the window, so most everyone knew about it.) Seriously, if it came down to my son... or that congregation... I would have given my son. Think what you will, but I would have.
So, the doctor's response was, "I thought you would say that, so we've already started the process for a court order for custody." Well, now I knew what had taken them so long. He decided, however, that he would at least ask my son how HE felt; my son said, "NO blood."
To make a long story short at this point, the doctor... I should say doctors... and I went back and forth, that night and into the next day. I wouldn't give in, though, NOT because of the blood issue, but I kept hearing that my son did NOT have cancer, indeed, didn't even have an illness that required blood at all. I told them that I wanted a second opinion; they refused, saying that ALL of the doctors who had examined my son were of the same opinion and that if I wanted another diagnosis, I would need to take him to another hospital. Well, okay.
I called my insurance (HealthNet) who told me that since this hospital was my PCP, if I took my son elsewhere I would be responsible for the entire bill, they were not obligated to cover any of it. Crud. Now, what to do? But, the voice said to me, "Do not worry; all will be handled. And your son does not have cancer."
Around 10am I received a call from a hospital in Orange County. They would take my son, if we could get him there. Apparently, the Blood Committee folks (who were there round the clock, to my GREAT consternation!) had called this hospital in Orange County. Great. But we're in Sacramento; how do we get to Orange County?? I decided we would put a mattress in the back of our pickup... or something... and take him. Whatever it took.
Next thing, a nurse comes into my son's room and disconnects him from all drips (he had a total of 6) except the Ringer's. Then she writes in LARGE black letters "AMA" on his chart, hangs it on the wall, closes the curtain around him and walks out. "AMA"?? Another nurse walks by and when she heard me ask, said, "Against Medical Advice." Ahhhh...
So, we're racking our brains trying to figure out how to get my son to Orange County when HealthNet calls back. A different lady says not to worry, that HealthNet was going to take care of everything, including getting us to Orange County. Okaaaaayyyyy. So we sit... and wait. And wait. And wait. No one comes to check on my son. Nothing. Until about 1pm or so.
I hear a ruckus in the hallway and when I step out to see what's going on I see, to my right, the surgeon coming... and he has papers in his hand. To my left, I could hear someone, a man, asking "the Johnson child, we're here for the Johnson child," and I saw two flight "nurses" wheeling a gurney in my direction. NO ONE would tell them what room my son was in! I said, "We're here!" The doctor and flight nurses met just outside my son's door.
The doctor said, "I have a court order and we're taking him into custody."
Some how, though, by SOME grace... I was able to talk the OTHER doctors into talking him into letting my son go. He was NOT happy, though, and didn't do so easily. But he finally consented, threw the court order on the counter, and walked (well, stormed) away, and we were able to take my son to Orange County.
By the time we got there, though, about 4 hours later, my son's temperature was in the 105's. The pediatric surgeon who met us said my son was too weak to be operated on and it would have to wait until they could get his temp down son. He then said, "I can't say what your son has, but I've seen cancer in children. And I don't think your son has cancer." Almost didn't matter, though... my son's temp spiked to the high 105's and they put him in the ICU to try and get it down.
I knew he was in trouble, though, when... when his temp hit 106 and he went into convulsions... and the ICU nurses didn't know what to do. They seemed more afraid that I was!!! They were running around, frantic, alarms were going off, someone was calling a "Code" something! The pediatric surgeon had left and no one could reach him. So they called in the emergency on-call surgeon. He sat me down, about 10 inches from his face and said, "Ma'am, I don't have time to read your son's chart. I want YOU to tell me, from start to finish, what has occurred with you son. Don't leave anything out!" And so I told him.
And he said to me, "I don't think your son has cancer; I think, from what you've told me, he has a ruptured appendix. I need to operate right now." And so they prepped him... and wheeled him out.
After a laparotomy procedure that took 3.5 hours... and required absolutely NO blood (in fact, he lost less than 3cc's)... the true diagnosis was made. And it was NO cancer, NO appendicitis, NO tumor, NO abcess. My son had a disease that, according to the experts, had been "completely eradicated" in the U.S. "back in the 1930's." He had... miliary TB. No, not "pulmonary TB" which is airborn, gets into the lungs, and is highly contagious... but miliary TB... which is found in joints and body cavities... and is only potential contagious to surgeons and operating room staff, etc., who may be exposed if the body is opened.
But... NO CANCER.
Unfortunately, due to the supposed eradication, there was NO medication available to treat it! They had to create it for him. As a result of all of this, the CDC was called in, as were reps from the Health Departments for Sacramento and Orange Counties. Where had this COME from??? And why hadn't it been detected? I can answer the second easier than the first: My son is considered a "false negative" for TB. Some of the doctors said that had he tested "positive" for pulmonary TB, they might have had a frame of reference, but he didn't. Other doctors said, however, that he didn't have pulmonary TB...and there was no more specific test for miliary TB... so he would have still tested negative.
As to how he got it, we don't know for sure but the thinking is that someone with HIV (a foodserver somewhere, and that's another story altogether... and beyond the scope of this thread) contaminated something he ate... and the organism passed through his stomach and, after settling in his small intestine, "ate" its way through into his abdominal cavity. Once there, it multiplied and began to take over. In doing so, it took out part of his small intestine, part of his bladder, all of his appendix and his spleen. THAT was the cause for the fever... the attempt to fight off the organism. The organism is what they were "seeing" on the GI, ultrasound, and CT scan.
But... it wasn't cancer. Not at all. Never was... and that is what I heard all along. Once again, the voice had been right.
If Shelly's re-telling of this story had contained all the details, then I wouldn't give a hoot if it was sound research or imagined divine mumbles that made her get a second opinion and seek alternative treatment; she would have done the right thing as a parent.
The details were beyond the scope of the thread, dear Abaddon. Surely, you can "see" that. That you are taking issue with a summary is... well, interesting. However, I have obliged, above. Not that I believe that will change your opinion...
I may have thought 'yeah, like god told you', but as the actions taken were the same as if any responsible parent had doubts about a diagnosis, I'd not have taken her to task for it.
Yes. Sure. Right.
What got me in the version of the story in this thread is it sounded like she refused medical treatment based on imagined divine mumbles,
Imagined, no. Divine, I believe so. Mumbles? Ummmmm... more like clear whispers, dear one. Mumbles aren't very clear. Whispers, while low, can be clear. These were.
without any thought as to why she and her son are important to god and the rest of the dying babies worldwide are not (is god really that big a shit?), or that maybe she was lucky and other parents doing the same KILL their kids.
You are only partially correct. I did not have to think as to why I/my son are important to JAH; I believed we were. Not more or less than anyone else, per se, as I have NEVER thought of myself/my household in relation to anyone else. Never have... never do. Didn't think we were "lucky", either. I just believed what I heard... and acted on it. Do other parents do that? I am sure some do. How it turns out for them, however, it between them and whoever it is they listen to. I don't know their hearts, so I cannot say.
And what further gets me now you kindly give ALL the details, is her omitting details to big up god - or herself.
Again, I didn't omit to "do" anything. I only intended to summarize because, again, it was outside the scope of the thread. But since you need more... I have given more.
And let's face it, the more a person claims to 'hear' god or be guided by a particularly accurate interpretation of scripture, the more their faith is based on their own opinion, and becomes a form of self-idolatrous narcissism.
But then, that is YOUR opinion, isn't it, dear one, which you are certainly entitled to. You certainly don't have to believe me.
LOL, yup, the most high certainly needs Shelly to be economical with the facts so people think he's wonderful.
Ummmm... this wasn't about the MOST High, dear one. It wasn't HIS voice that spoke to me. It was His Son's. Doesn't matter, though. I simply shared the truth. In summary, at first, yes. But it was and is the truth.
So, now, I'll be moving on as the point of the thread was made, several times. This other is just... well, let's call it icing on the cake, shall we?
Again, peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
