The Hobbit and Evolution: So What's Up With That?

by AGuest 125 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace!

    Hubby and I happened to catch an episode of "Nova" last night. Fascinating stuff. Seems there's a bit of a threat to the "concrete" theories of evolution, man's origination in Africa, and hominid species. What was most interesting is several scientist/anthropologist/paleontologist admissions that there is actually very little known about... and in evidence to support... evolution. That was surprising.

    Anyway, the show was about another hominid "species", Homo floresiensis, or "Hobbit." One news article stated:

    "The discovery of Homo floresiensis shocked and divided scientists. Here apparently was a band of distant relatives that exhibited features not seen for millions of years but were living at the same time as much more modern humans. Almost overnight, the find threatened to change our understanding of human evolution. It would mean contemplating the possibility that not all the answers to human evolution lie in Africa, and that our development was more complex than previously thought."

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/06/tech/main6273478.shtml

    Interestingly, the same article notes critics as saying something that I have shared here, which is almost always met with great rancor and discord:

    "... the hobbit's discovery as nothing extraordinary. They continue to argue that the hobbit, just 3 feet tall with a brain the size of a baby's, was nothing more than a deformed human. Its strange appearance, they say, could be blamed on a range of genetic disorders that cause the body and brain to shrink."

    Here are some other links to the subject, as well:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rethinking-the-hobbits-in-indonesia

    http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jan/085

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

    My point, in posting this matter, isn't to discredit evolution; again, I believe in it, with the exception being human evolution. My point is that many here take great issue with the changing "beliefs" in religion (as do I)... but get all sweaty when someone points out that "science" tends to do the same thing. While it's true that religion does contrive their changes, it is also true that "science" often states as FACT... something that is latter shown/proven not to be fact at all. In both instances, what/who is a person to believe? It really cannot be known because "things" always seem to change.

    There is one thing, however... well, two... that do not change: the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit. And so, in spite of the attacks on my sanity, reason, and rationality, I CHOOSE to put MY faith... in the "constant" feature... Christ.

    Anyway, I didn't make the thread to start an argument, truly. I only wanted to show that even "science" doesn't always agree... or know. Even when they say they do.

    Again, peace to you all!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    My point, in posting this matter, isn't to discredit evolution; again, I believe in it, with the exception being human evolution.

    ??? - how can you believe in evolution but not believe in human evolution?

    You are aware that both Neanderthal and modern hominid DNA have been sequenced and found to be related but distinctly different?

    EDIT to add: As far as the "Hobbit" types - multiple fossils have been found. That would seem to rule out singular examples of some kind of one-off birth defect or mutation.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    ??? - how can you believe in evolution but not believe in human evolution?

    There's a thread here, somewhere, where I explained, dear JW (peace to you, dear one!). Unfortunately, gotta run to the doctor so can't look for/link it just now. Will try when I get back (unless someone does before I do).

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • moshe
    moshe

    Well science tries to deal with tangible/measurable "facts". Theories are put forth- like the Hobbit man, and after extensive peer review and further discoveries the original idea is proven to be true or discarded for a better answer. Religion deals with stuff you can't see or measure and until such time as real miracle working spirt being shows up for science to verify, we are left with one of several thousand historical gods to believe in or not believe in. Humans tend to hang onto their favorite god even when they lack any evidence to support it- peer pressure, maybe?- who wants to be the first to come up with a new god?

  • NomadSoul
    NomadSoul

    While we're at it, let's also talk about a few other discoveries:

    -Ardipithecus ramidus
    -Australopithecus afarensis
    -Australopithecus africanus
    -Australopithecus anamensis
    -Australopithecus bahrelghazali
    -Australopithecus sediba
    -Bipedal hominid
    -Homo antecessor
    -Homo ergaster
    -Homo gautengensis
    -Homo georgicus
    -Homo habilis
    -Homo habilis sensu Lato
    -Homo heidelbergensis
    -Homo neanderthalensis
    -Homo rhodesiensis
    -Homo rudolfensis
    -Homo sapiens idaltu
    -Kenyanthropus platyops
    -Orrorin tugenensis
    -Paranthropus aethiopicus
    -Paranthropus boisei
    -Paranthropus robustus
    -Sahelanthropus tchadensis

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Given our current data, there's always the possibility of something helping us along the evolutionary road. Some form(s) of intelligence might have been facinated with our little planet and all it's evolving species.

    I have always felt like we were "picked" because we had a good foundation.

    Sorry for the left-field thoughts, lol.

    -Sab

  • unshackled
    unshackled
    My point, in posting this matter, isn't to discredit evolution; again, I believe in it, with the exception being human evolution.

    Whaaa...? Wow, its displayed all over our bodies. Laryngeal nerve, maxillary glands, goose bumps, vestigial tails, wisdom teeth, plantaris muscle....and the biggest one our DNA.

  • DanaBug
    DanaBug
    Seems there's a bit of a threat to the "concrete" theories of evolution, man's origination in Africa, and hominid species.

    Which concrete theories of evolution are in dispute? The dispute about H. floresiensis is whether they are homo sapiens with a genetic or endocrine disorder or a new species of homini and if so, how are they descended from or related to h. erectus. The theories of evolution are not in dispute, what is in dispute is how this particular group evolved and what that means in relation to how and when humans evolved. So the rest of your sentence is true, just not the first part.

    Hominini is the tribe of Homininae that comprises Humans (Homo), and two species of the genus Pan (the Common Chimpanzee and the Bonobo), their ancestors, and the extinct lineages of their common ancestor (but see the discussion below for alternative vies). Members of the tribe are called hominins (cf. Hominidae, "hominids"). The subtribeHominina is the "human" branch, including genus Homo and its close relatives, but not Pan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominini

    The discoverers (archaeologist Mike Morwood and colleagues) proposed that a variety of features, both primitive and derived, identify these individuals as belonging to a new species, H. floresiensis, within the taxonomic tribe of Hominini. Hominini currently comprises the extant species human (the only living member of the genus Homo), bonobo (genus Pan), and chimpanzee (genus Pan); their ancestors; and the extinct lineages of their common ancestor. [1] [3] The discoverers also proposed that H. floresiensis lived contemporaneously with modern humans (Homo sapiens) on Flores. [4] Doubts that the remains constitute a new species were soon voiced by the Indonesian anthropologist Teuku Jacob, who suggested that the skull of LB1 was a microcephalic modern human. Two studies by paleoneurologist Dean Falk and her colleagues (2005, 2007) rejected this possibility. [5] [6] [7] Falk et al. (2005) has been rejected by Martin et al. (2006) and Jacob et al. (2006) and defended by Morwood (2005) and Argue, Donlon et al. (2006).

    Two orthopedic researches published in 2007 both reported evidence to support species status for H. floresiensis. A study of three tokens of carpal (wrist) bones concluded there were similarities to the carpal bones of a chimpanzee or an early hominin such as Australopithecus and also differences from the bones of modern humans. [8] [9] A study of the bones and joints of the arm, shoulder, and lower limbs also concluded that H. floresiensis was more similar to early humans and apes than modern humans. [10] [11] In 2009, the publication of a cladistic analysis [12] and a study of comparative body measurements [13] provided further support for the hypothesis that H. floresiensis and Homo sapiens are separate species.

    Critics of the claim for species status continue to believe that these individuals are Homo sapiens possessing pathologies of anatomy and physiology. A second hypothesis in this category is that the individuals were born without a functioning thyroid, resulting in a type of endemic cretinism (myxoedematous, ME). [14]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis#Laron_syndrome_hypothesis

    Flores Man Denied Status As New Species

    Poor Flores Man just can't rest in peace. All year a controversy has raged about whether the bones found in 2003 on the remote Indonesian island of Flores represent a new species. Australian paleoanthropologist Peter Brown insists the skeleton is a new type of human who should be called Homo floresiensis. Others say he's simply a pygmy, five feet tall, who had microcephaly, a condition that results in a small, oddly shaped skull.

    That's why Robert Eckhardt, a paleoanthropologist at Pennsylvania State University, and a team have intently analyzed the 18,000-year-old bones. The group's research papers, undergoing peer review, are unequivocal. "Homo floresiensis," says Eckhardt, "is not a valid new human species."

    Brown is dismissive. "Robert Eckhardt is thick as a plank," he says. Working on the joint Australian-Indonesian team that discovered Flores Man, Brown concluded that the brain shape, long arms, and chinless jaw indicate descent from an early hominid. He also believes Flores Man is, in fact, a woman who stood less than four feet tall. But Brown has lost his ability to prove his case. The Indonesian government has not renewed the Australians' permits to excavate on Flores, ending his chances to find a second skull to support the theory. Compounding the problem, the bones have been badly damaged. The pelvis is shattered and the jaw broken, injuries that Brown and Teuku Jacob, a senior Indonesian archaeologist and proponent of the pygmy theory, blame on each other. —Zach Zorich

    http://discovermagazine.com/2006/jan/archaeology-copy

    66 Hobbit Wars Heat Up

    When small, humanlike bones were discovered in a cave on the Indonesian island of Flores in 2003, anthropologists knew they had found something exceedingly odd. But what? A new species of dwarf people? A colony of pygmy freaks? Half-joking, some researchers simply referred to the remains as "hobbits."

    The evidence from 2006 has sharpened the speculation. In September Penn State evolutionary biologist Robert Eckhardt published a paper attacking the idea that Flores Man was a separate species of hominin, related to Homo erectus, that lived in isolation as recently as 13,000 years ago. That idea is championed by Peter Brown of the University of New England in Armidale, Australia, a codiscoverer of Flores Man.

    Eckhardt argues that the bones share many features, such as rotated teeth and a receding chin, with the Rampasasa pygmies living today near the cave where the remains were found. He notes that the average Rampasasa is just a foot taller than Flores Man. "They may have been going through a temporary food shortage that made them small even for pygmies," he says. In addition, his team found that the most complete specimen of Flores Man was so misshapen that the individual likely suffered from some sort of developmental abnormality, which might explain why the brain was so small.

    But when anatomists at Stony Brook University in New York examined the Flores specimens at the request of Brown's team, they supported that group's very different interpretation. They found that Flores Man's shoulders were hunched slightly more forward than in modern humans, and the extraordinarily short legs ended in long feet. Such features seem to tag the Flores people as a separate species, not pygmy versions of modern humans. In addition, some of the oldest Flores remains date back before modern humans were thought to be in the area, which suggests that Flores Man was a distinct species. These little remains could rewrite the story of modern human evolution, so don't expect the debate, or the tempers, to cool down anytime soon.

    Jeffrey Winters

    http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jan/paleontology/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C#66

    In one comparative study [subscription required], anthropologist Adam Gordon, now an assistant professor at the University of Albany, along with colleagues at George Washington University, found that the skull of LB1, nicknamed “the hobbit,” was “well outside the range of modern human variation,” according to Gordon. “When you consider the relationship between size and shape of the skull, [it] is most similar to Homo habilis,” a small hominid that disappeared more than a million and a half years ago.

    In another study, paleoanthropologist William Jungers of Stony Brook University in New York studied the foot of the hobbit and found it, true to its namesake, strikingly large relative to the size of the body, with very short big toes. Jungers argues that this foot structure links the hobbit to earlier hominids. Claims that they were diseased humans, Jungers says, “are ridiculous.”

    But Robert B. Eckhardt, an evolutionary biologist at Penn State University, notes that the DNA isolated from the remains matches that of Homo sapiens, and no study has ruled out the possibility that the hobbit was a human with a developmental abnormality.

    http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jan/085

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Believing in evolution with the exception of human evolution is like believing in the internal combustion engine with the exception of the Chevy V8.

    You seem to be profoundly unaware of how science works.

    Since people made up various religious texts, others have been produced denying the veracity of those that proceeded them. However, none of them can prove themselves to be true or others to be untrue.

    Scientific theories arise because of a burden of evidence supporting them. Sometimes new evidence causes refinement, revision. Please note I use 'theory' in the sense of 'gravity', not 'string'; the later is more if a hypothesis.

    When new evidence appears, it can take a while and oft times some argument - not always dignified - until there is a consensus of what it means and how it impacts the understanding of whatever field of science it falls under.

    I could go into detail about the decade-long bitchfest that is the 'out of Africa' and 'multi-regionalism' debate about our origins. For a long time the Afria lobby held the winning cards, but now new genetic methods are finding traces of H. neanderthalis and H. denisovius (sp?) ancestry in H. sap (us) X chromosomes, which kind of hints H. erectus evolved into the above regionalised humans before a further wave of H. erectus descendants (in this case H. sapiens) rolled out of Africa and displaced them with some admixture.

    H. florensis is a sideshow, albeit an interesting one.

    It in no way, shape or form puts into doubt that around 5 million years ago there were primates who were the ancestors of us AND chimpanzees.

    There is proof of this in our bones, in our genes, and in the ground (i.e. fossils).

    Feel free to question things though; however, given your level of education about evolution and you desire to believe in things not supported by evidence, you will be liable to error and rushing off to conclusions that fit your prexisting desire to not believe in human evolution.

    If you really wanted, you could study the subject.

    Anyway, I didn't make the thread to start an argument, truly. I only wanted to show that even "science" doesn't always agree... or know. Even when they say they do.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Intersting (may you all have peace!). In everyone's "defense" of evolution, none of the points I made were addressed. For example:

    "... several scientist/anthropologist/paleontologist admissions that there is actually very little known about... and in evidence to support... evolution."

    I didn't make that up. That's what THEY (several scientists/anthropologists/and at least one paleontologist) stated on the show. As I said, I was surprised.

    "Almost overnight, the find threatened to change our understanding of human evolution. It would mean contemplating the possibility that not all the answers to human evolution lie in Africa, and that our development was more complex than previously thought."

    Didn't make that up: took it right out of the article, which I posted a link to.

    "... critics as saying something that I have shared here... : '... the hobbit's discovery as nothing extraordinary. They continue to argue that the hobbit, just 3 feet tall with a brain the size of a baby's, was nothing more than a deformed human. Its strange appearance, they say, could be blamed on a range of genetic disorders that cause the body and brain to shrink."

    Didn't make this up, either.

    And, finally, my POINT:

    "... isn't to discredit evolution... My point is that many here take great issue with the changing "beliefs" in religion (as do I)... but get all sweaty when someone points out that "science" tends to do the same thing. While it's true that religion does contrive their changes, it is also true that "science" often states as FACT... something that is later shown/proven not to be fact at all."

    Where, pray tell, are the comments to THESE issues? Perhaps I should have written, "later shown/proven not to be the TRUTH at all." But that's kind of plucking at hairs, isn't it? C'mon, evolutionists (human or otherwise); ya'll stop acting all coy and all... and respond... clearly... to the issues raised. If you must respond. Otherwise, I have no choice but to think YOU "religious"... in your apparently largely unfounded beliefs regarding human evolution. In spite of your long lists of "discoveries" (some of which have been shown to include hoaxes from time to time).

    Again, peace to you all!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA, who's just trying to keep it "real"...

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