Good point Clara - in their own words 'RELIGION IS A SNARE AND A RACKET'
Loz x
Is it the only True religion?
by cupcakekourtney88 73 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
sizemik
Welcome along . . . seraphinajade . . . that's a very timely post, as it is a good example of 'critical thinking' . . .
Correct me if I'm wrong . . . but the basis of your question is that if God is omniscient (all knowing) and omnipotent (all powerful) then the ultimate responsibility for evil . . . is God . . . ?
Outside of the 'excuses' I believe this conclusion is inescapably correct.
Considering also, that the JW's would have us believe that the God of the Bible is poised to massacre 99.9% (7.2 billion) of the human race in order to 'rid the world of evil', . . . and yet free will (the potential for evil) remains, . . . this presents a disturbing view of someone who has the potential to avoid it . . . to the critical thinker anyway.
Good question . . . you have my answer . . . although I'm no longer a JW
-
Black Sheep
and why would I need to a thinking book?? Which I have a lot english books bc I was once an college student.. hmm not helpful. sorry.
If you really didn't need help with critical thinking, you wouldn't be here asking for our help.
Please click on the link and read the introduction. Having a high IQ, a university education, and a library full of books didn't bestow any critical thinking abilities on me, that's for sure. I had to learn them the hard way, later on in life, after I had made a lot of mistakes.
Chris
-
WontLeave
@seraphinajade
I've thought about many of these things myself, as I'm sure most here have. When I think about them, I actually want answers, not just to wax philosophical and stroke my own ego for my self-indulgent perception of brilliance, which is the goal of many who "question". For example, if you encounter the "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" question, that person is a pompous douche and talking to him/her is a total waste of time and oxygen. Add to that, their "stroke of brilliance" is borrowed, which makes it that much more pathetic.
I will endeavor to give my personal take on these questions. My hands are kind of tied without the ability to quote the Bible, but I feel I understand it better than most and can put what's said into my own words and omit much of what people believe, even though the Bible never says it. Having an opinion on what's not said is where my personal opinion comes in. Many will contradict the Bible with their personal opinion - which is their right - but then we just have another religion (perhaps with only 1 member, but a religion nonetheless). Where I fill in the gaps the Bible leaves is what I believe is the most logical, with the pieces I do have. Those who randomly fill in the gaps out of ignorance and share their "brilliance" for just making stuff up irritate me and do not add to the discussion; they merely muddy the water, wasting time and pixels.
Does god know all?
My belief is, God knows everything that can be known. Given unfathomable knowledge and wisdom, anything which the outcome can be calculated - if all variables are known - God can figure it out. He also has the power to manipulate the outcome, in cases of his divine will and prophecy, but he is not a puppeteer.
Did he create all?
God is the source of all creation. While the only thing he personally created was Jesus, he provided the energy and design for everything else, as well. Thus, making all creation possible, he is credited with it. Similarly, a construction contractor is credited with a building, even if he never swung a hammer in its entire process. He wrote the checks, provided the materials, provided the labor, made sure the blueprints were followed, and oversaw the work to make sure it was to his standard. Never do you see a list of the workers on a sign outside a new building.
Why did he create evil?
Creating free will requires options. If disobedience isn't an option, there is no free will and all are robots existing within the confines of restrictive programming.
We are his playthings.
No more than children are the playthings of their parents. We exist to love and worship God, but given the option. Forced, programmed worship is hollow and meaningless.
Did god know that this world would turn out the way it did?
I don't believe so. Free will would require something which cannot be calculated. If our actions can be calculated based on our knowledge, experience, in-born temperament, chemical makeup, etc., then we are simply complicated robots, acting out complex programming, who can't be held responsible for our deeds.
For evil to come into this world, our creator MUST have known evil, or how else would it even exist?
At one time there was nothing. No light, no matter, no life, no gender, no emotions, nothing. Everything that exists is an invention of God. He is neither male nor female, but male and female exist.
Adam and Eve, who were mere mortals with curiousity and they didnt know.
According to the Bible, Eve didn't know; Adam did. We aren't fallen through Eve, but Adam.
Its like putting a cake on the table and saying to your kids "DO NOT EAT THIS or you will become evil".
Adam and Eve had nearly absolute freedom. One of the two commands was - in a nutshell - have sex and beautify your home. People do this naturally, so for all intents and purposes, there were no rules but one: Don't eat from this tree. Without the opportunity for disobedience, there is no real obedience. That was all God asked from them as their acknowledgement for their Creator. No sacrifices, no church, no prayers, no Bible. Contrary to closed-minded and prudish modern "Christianity", there were no rules against using drugs (many of which occur naturally), drinking alcohol (a natural process), tobacco (also naturally-occurring), promiscuity, various sex acts, etc. Many assumptions are made as to what would have turned out to be in a perfect paradise earth, but we never got a chance to see it through.
EVERYTHING comes back to the creator.
If I kill someone with a hammer, just because it's possible, is the hammer factory somehow responsible? Free will was misused in the Garden and continues to be misused today. When this one-time example has run its course, misuses of free will won't be tolerated anymore. In the new earth, any uprising will be immediately quashed, as a precedent will already exist. Nobody - neither angel nor human - will have to suffer for the misdeeds of anyone else. The example of Satan and several thousand years of human misery will serve as an example and never allowed to happen again: A small price to pay for eternal perfection and happiness.
There is an opposite to everything.
Eastern philosophers would agree. Unfortunately, this allows for nothing better than what we have and makes everything pointless. It answers no questions and provides no hope. If there is a God and his book is a pack of lies, we're screwed. If there is a God and his book is truth then making up other philosophies is an empty exercise in mental masturbation. If there is no God, then be glad you are living in a place where you are free to believe what you want and question things. Be glad you weren't born in an African village, with AIDS, to suffer and starve to death before your 5th birthday. If we only get one shot, many have been horribly short-changed. Yet it seems the ones who are the most advantaged are the ones who appreciate it the least.
My 2¢ (not adjusted for inflation, so it's got to be worth at least $1); I hope it's helpful.
-
Mad Sweeney
and why would I need to a thinking book??
Everyone needs to learn critical thinking. It isn't something that is tought in general education courses or public schools. There are often critical thinking courses at the university level but it is unlikely that you would take one unless you had a specific interest in philosophy as a college student.
Generally, our beliefs are not shaped by critical thought, unless we force them to be. Beliefs are like water and will flow through the path of least resistance, unless we control them intentionally.
-
Yan Bibiyan
WL...Oh, boy...
...At one time there was nothing. No light, no matter, no life, no gender, no emotions, nothing. Everything that exists is an invention of God.
...but then....
if all variables are known - God can figure it out
Did God invent unknown variables? Doesn't this kinda screw up both his omniscience and omnipotence?
-
yknot
CK88,
As an active JW.....
I could give you a long drawn out history lesson and I will if you want to PM me......however the short of it is this: We claim it (only true religion), but the paper trail of magazines, books, tracts, outlines, and recorded talks show clearly that it wasn't so, our present understanding is a 'revised' version of past understandings subject to even more revision with two goals in mind:
1) Jesus chose only us.... so obey the WTS, give your time and money and full allegiance spending a life converting and maintaining their status quo
2) The end is nigh and if you want to survive you must be in 'association' with the WTS Organization which is used by the 'Governing Body' who act as 'representatives' of the 'faithful and discreet slave' class even though they never consult with any of them outside of themselves as part of that alleged class.
As for those 'others' not JWs who might survive Armageddon........ the thought is that a 'worldly' person (a non-jw) can be kept safe through Armageddon but only if that person accepted and began following the WTS/GB moments before Armageddon started and were grandfathered in due to 'association' with 'slave' and Org........that sweet ol religious lady who spent a life of charity and kindness in the name of jesus but rejected the WTS claim will become 'birdfood'.......
-
WontLeave
Did God invent unknown variables?
Why not? People invented dice. If God truly invented free will, it can't be foreseen or else it's just a complicated program and we're robots.
Doesn't this kinda screw up both his omniscience and omnipotence?
I never said God was either. I don't believe God is a magical fortune teller; he's just a lot smarter than us. I don't believe he has limitless power; he's just the most powerful entity.
The God of most "Christians" is magical. I don't believe this. I simply believe God is vastly intelligent, understands things about physics we haven't even scratched the surface of, and has access to reserves of power that defy our imagination which allows him to act on this knowledge with amazing outcomes.
It's said that a model of the universe that would allow everything to be completely understood would have to be at least the size of the universe and thus impossible to contain within the universe. Any reduction loses accuracy, leaving us with guesses. God is outside the universe and the source of it (there's no telling how much or little of himself he put into the creation of it). As the designer, he understands the functions from the quantum to the astronomical.
-
TheLoveDoctor
***
it-1pp.772-773Evil***
That which results in pain, sorrow, or distress. In order to convey the correct thought in English, the very comprehensive Hebrew word ra? is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context. (Ge 2:9; 40:7; 41:3; Ex 33:4; De 6:22; 28:35; Pr 23:6; 28:22) The Greek word ka·kos′ may be defined as that which is (1) morally evil and (2) destructive; among the ways it has been translated are: “bad,” “evil,” “hurtful,” “injurious,” “wrong.” (Ro 7:19; 12:17; Col 3:5; Tit 1:12; Heb 5:14) The Hebrew verb qa·lal′ means “call down evil upon.”—See MALEDICTION.
As first used in the Scriptures, the word ra? is the very antithesis of good. Adam was commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad (ra?) and was also warned of the consequences for disobedience. Hence, it is evident that God sets the standard as to what is good and what is bad; it is not within man’s prerogative to do so apart from God. Although Adam transgressed God’s express law, this transgression is not chargeable to Jehovah, “for with evil things [form of ka·kos′] God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire.”—Jas 1:13, 14; Ge 2:16, 17; 3:17-19.
The
MeaningofJehovah’sBringingEvil. Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7; compare KJ.) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jon 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, Jehovah has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living.—Eze 33:11.Avoidance
ofEvil. Since Jehovah determines the standard of right and wrong, it behooves the individual to acquaint himself with that standard fully in order to be able to discern what course must be followed. (Heb 5:14) The love of money is one of those evil, or injurious, things to be avoided. (1Ti 6:10) It is unwise to be anxious about material things, for, as Jesus said, “sufficient for each day is its own badness [ka·ki′a],” that is, the trouble, or affliction, associated with the day. (Mt 6:34) In putting on the new personality, “hurtful desire” is included among the things to be eliminated. (Col 3:5) As the Devil tempted Jesus with evil, so Christians find that evil thoughts crop up or are presented to them. But to avoid being drawn into sin when this happens, the Christian should follow Jesus’ example and dismiss such evil immediately. (Jas 1:13-15; Mt 4:1-11; Php 4:8) Although, because of human imperfection, a Christian finds himself in constant conflict with the fallen flesh, as did Paul, and may do the bad that he does not wish to practice, he must not give in to the flesh but must keep up the fight against it. (Ro 7:21; 8:8) The danger of failing to live up to God’s righteous requirements is clearly seen in what Jesus stated concerning the evil slave. The severest punishment is to be meted out to that slave for his failure to care for the responsibilities entrusted to him and for going even to the point of beating his fellow slaves.—Mt 24:48-51.Christian
SufferingofEvil. The Scriptures do not authorize the Christian to bring evil upon others, or to retaliate in kind. The Bible’s counsel is: “Return evil for evil to no one.” “Do not avenge yourselves . . . ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’” “Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Ro 12:17, 19, 21) Moreover, in giving relative subjection to the governments ruling over them, servants of God should never be found to be practicers of what is bad, for such governments, through their rulers who have a measure of God-given conscience to a lesser or greater degree, act against badness according to the law of the land and rightfully exercise their authority to punish wrongdoers. (Ro 13:3, 4) For any misuse of their authority they will be accountable to the Supreme Judge. By suffering evil for righteousness’ sake, the Christian shares in the privilege of having a part in the glorifying of God’s holy name.—1Pe 4:16. -
bohm
seraphinajade, i will try to give my perspective on Wontleaves questions so you got something to compare with. Be warned i think the evidence point towards Gods nonexistence.
Creating free will requires options. If disobedience isn't an option, there is no free will and all are robots existing within the confines of restrictive programming.
The problem of evil is a fundamental one. "We must have options therefore there is evil" is clearly not a solution in itself, but need to be fleshed out. When it is, it create new problems and so on and on. Wontleave hint as disobedience; Satan or Eve? At any rate, why does this disobedience have anything to do with eg. a baby being killed today?
This particular rationalization is build on the idea that a choice made a long time ago -- and notice how weak the evidence is that this actually happened at all! -- should have an effect on people being born today. Why is that? Is that how you would do it? An endless mountain of rationalizations need to be piled up to support this idea, and then the bible really need to come into play.
No more than children are the playthings of their parents. We exist to love and worship God, but given the option. Forced, programmed worship is hollow and meaningless.
is it natural for parents to get mad if their children do not worship them? If not choosing to worship God lead to all the horrible things even babies are subject to, what choice do we have? "you have the option to worship me, that is your free choice, but if you do not, i will kill you and your children". i wonder how that is answered without referring to the bible...
Adam and Eve had nearly absolute freedom. One of the two commands was - in a nutshell - have sex and beautify your home. People do this naturally, so for all intents and purposes, there were no rules but one: Don't eat from this tree. Without the opportunity for disobedience, there is no real obedience.
At the end of the day, it is easy to tell a story; what is the evidence this really happened? would YOU have done what God did, or what Adam and Eve did, in their situation? (or would you have forgiven them? stopped Satan? told them about the consequences and given them the choice?)
If not, is the story really plausible, or are we simply asked to accept the story as plausible, talking snakes and all, because it is there and there need to be an explanation?
If I kill someone with a hammer, just because it's possible, is the hammer factory somehow responsible? Free will was misused in the Garden and continues to be misused today.
Here is another analogy: You have two kids and an apple tree. You tell your kids: If you eat from the tree i will kill you. One day the neighbours kid tell your kids its okay to eat from the tree and they do. You go out and kill your kids.
Which analogy is the closer to the story? did you exhibit particular good parenting skills? do you think "i wanted to give my children options.. they arent robots you know, they are children who can make free choices and get killed if they make the wrong ones" will work well in the court?
When this one-time example has run its course, misuses of free will won't be tolerated anymore. In the new earth, any uprising will be immediately quashed, as a precedent will already exist.
they will have free will...God will just kill them if they do anything he wont like them to do...and they need to worship him. yah..my kind of heaven. How will it work out, when someone does something God does not like, will God then tell them: see, i killed adam and eve and let 20 billion people die for their crime, therefore its okay i kill you to? Just who is God trying to justify his actions to? Makes no sence at all..
If heaven worked that way, he would just have killed adam and eve and made two new humans he could then threaten to kill, perhaps showing them a movie of how he zapped eve.
alternatively he could try to reason with them like a non-psychopatic person and explain how some actions are better than other.
Eastern philosophers would agree. Unfortunately, this allows for nothing better than what we have and makes everything pointless. It answers no questions and provides no hope.
nirvana, the ultimate state of joy and enlightenment, is pointless? actually i think estern philosophy solve the problem of evil far better than christianity, i think its false, but its a nicer solution.
The last part of the post is one long argument from consequence... Say i believed i was going to marry Angelina Jolie, would it make my belief any more true that i really really wanted to marry her, and if i didnt, i just felt i was going to die alone?
Be glad you weren't born in an African village, with AIDS, to suffer and starve to death before your 5th birthday. If we only get one shot, many have been horribly short-changed. Yet it seems the ones who are the most advantaged are the ones who appreciate it the least.
well, the inventions which have given us the luxery of not suffering all these evils come from science. Science contradict the idea of the fall from the garden of even in a gazillion different ways. i do not think you have presented a coherent solution for the problem of evil, much less given evidence it is actually true.