FOUL TRICKERY by the GREAT WHORE.

by Focus 14 Replies latest jw friends

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  Focus

  ***g93 3/22 5
  A fable from India tells of six blind men from Indostan who went to see an elephant. The first one touched its side and said: 'Bless me! but the elephant is very like a wall!' The second one touched its tusk and said: 'An elephant is very like a spear!' The third touched its trunk and said: 'The elephant is very like a snake!' The fourth reached out and felt its knee and said: 'Tis clear enough the elephant is very like a tree!' The fifth touched its ear and said: 'This marvel of an elephant is very like a fan!' The sixth seized its tail and said: 'I see the elephant is very like a rope!' The six blind men disputed long and loud about what an elephant was like, but no one gave a correct description. Incomplete information did not give a complete picture. A similar problem arises when it comes to identifying the sign of Christ's return. In response to his disciples' question: 'What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?' Jesus answered: 'Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages.' (Matthew 24:3; Luke 21:10,11) But when only these things are cited as proof that Christ returned in 1914, people object: 'Oh, we've always had wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes!'

  (emphases mine).

  The average Awake! reader does not check text references back to the Bible. And the average jW typically reads the Bible hopping and skipping from a verse in one book direct to some verse of another book. When following references, he or she is trained to read just that which is pointed to. Often, he or she will just trust his memory and the WTBTS.

  So, what would (Matthew 24:3; Luke 21:10,11) suggest to Elder "Righteous" Slacker, our typical jW senior brother?

  He would not conclude that the two references reinforce one another i.e., both support the same contention. Matt. 24:3-7 and Luke 21:7-11 reinforce each other. Even Matt. 24:3,7 and Luke 21:7,10-11 reinforce each other. But Matt 24:3 does not reinforce Luke 21:10,11 - the first reference is to the question put to Jesus, and the second is to part of His reply to that question.

  So, Slacker would know that the two references combined together provide the material in support of the WT's reasoning. OK, I can live with that too.

  BUT WHY DID THE WATCHTOWER CHOOSE A QUESTION FROM ONE BOOK OF THE BIBLE AND THEN (PART OF) THE ANSWER FROM ANOTHER BOOK, WHEN THE SAME ANSWER WAS BUT A COUPLE OF VERSES AWAY FROM THE QUESTION?

  So, why not instead give as the reference: (Matthew 24:3,7) or (Luke 21:7,10-11) - or both?

  The answer for this clearly unusual form of quoting is that the Watchtower knows it is probable that if the jW is pointed to verses separated only by two or three short verses, the intervening ones will be read too. If, however, the two bits referred to are separated by many pages, it is improbable that the jW will read them in context or read the intervening material.

  I'll pull the verses referred to above out of the KJV (I could equally have used any recognized Bible here - even the "shocking mistranslation" that is the jW's NWT - for this purpose) - together with their context (not reproduced in bold).

  Matthew 24:3
  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
  Matthew 24:4-6
  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
  Matthew 24:7
  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

  [BIG JUMP]

  Luke 21:7
  And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
  Luke 21:8-9
  And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
  Luke 21:10-11
  Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

  And now the Watchtower's artful sleight-of-hand becomes manifest! I remind you that they referred to (Matthew 24:3; Luke 21:10,11)

  The scripture quoted above that is NOT emboldened, i.e. which is not here quoted by the Watchtower and which is unlikely to be read by the jW scrabbling to turn from Matthew to Luke, contains material WHICH SERIOUSLY DAMAGES the Watchtower's line of argument!

  Naturally, the WTBTS would prefer the reader not to read those verses Matt. 24:4-6 and Luke 21:8-9 RIGHT AT THE PRESENT MOMENT! After all, the verses basically say (in both Matt. and Luke) that one should not be scared of people who seize upon catastrophes to wrongly claim that Christ is returned or that Armageddon is nigh. WHICH IS EXACTLY AS THE WATCHTOWER HAS REPEATEDLY AND STRIDENTLY DONE!

  So they distract the jW or other reader with smoke, and direct him to a mirrored image far away so he or she misses the words of Jesus right under his nose that specifically reassured him that false prophets of doom and gloom like the Jehovah's Witnesses may be safely ignored.

  FOUL TRICKERY by the GREAT WHORE, indeed!

  There is much more deceit in that issue of Awake!... if G(g)od uses this Organization of Liars as his only visible representative on earth, then G(g)od is a Liar too, and deserves only our contempt.

  --
  Focus
  (Anti-Scripture Hopping Class)
• 

  refiners fire

  can it mean anything other than they are aware of their own guilt in this regard? Subconsciously aware that is.

  What about verse 26 of Matthew 24:
  "If they shall say to you...he is in the secret chamber, believe it not".
  What is the "secret chamber"?
  Well the Adventists say Christ is currently in the "holy of Holies" and has been since 1844. What is that if not a secret chamber?
  But could a secret chamber not be interpreted as a place in which He cannot be SEEN?
  An invisible state?
  I like to think so.
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  GinnyTosken

  Just out of curiosity, I looked at Matthew 24 and Luke 21 in The Five Gospels. Here is a portion of the commentary after Luke 21:7-19. [bolding mine]:

  Deception & strife. This passage, taken over directly from Mark 13:5-8, is reminiscent of Josephus' description of the events that led up to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. One thing that recurred during the siege was the appearance of phony prophets. Josephus reports (Jewish Wars, 6.285-87):

  These people [the six thousand who perished when the Romans assaulted the temple area] owed their demise to a phony prophet. He was someone who on that very day announced that God had ordered the people in the city to go up to the temple area, there to welcome the signs that they would be delivered. Many prophets at the time were incited by tyrannical leaders to persuade people to wait for help from God. . . . When humans suffer, they are readily persuaded; but when the con artist depicts release from potential affliction, those suffering give themselves up entirely to hope.

  "Wait on Jehovah" . . . Boy, that sounds familiar!

  Ginny
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  SYN

  Thanks for pointing that out, Focus. You flame the WTBTS like nobody I've ever seen! Keep it up!

  "I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species, 1869.
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  Yadirf

  Focus, the author of this ridiculous thread, is a true blue idiot in the truest sense of the word. An “idiot” is: 1. A foolish or stupid person. 2. A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech. Focus is so dense that he can’t see what’s directly in front of his own eyes after having scrutinized the texts he went to all the trouble to cite and compare.

  BUT WHY DID THE WATCHTOWER CHOOSE A QUESTION FROM ONE BOOK OF THE BIBLE AND THEN (PART OF) THE ANSWER FROM ANOTHER BOOK, WHEN THE SAME ANSWER WAS BUT A COUPLE OF VERSES AWAY FROM THE QUESTION?

  Note that Matthew’s account (v. 3) makes plain that the question the disciples asked had reference to Jesus coming again (his future “presence”), whereas in Luke’s parallel account (v. 7) such “presence” is NOT even mentioned. Similarly when it comes to the earthquake aspect of the sign, Luke’s account (v. 10-11) adds something that Matthew’s didn’t: Luke adds emphasis by saying “great earthquakes” rather than just simply “earthquakes” as was the case in Matthew (v. 7). So, obviously, the reason the writer of the Awake article chose to use Matthew’s verse 3 in conjunction with Luke’s verses 10-11 is that they each had something to add that their counterparts in the same book didn’t.

  FOUL TRICKERY by the GREAT WHORE, indeed!

  Hogwash!

  So they distract the jW or other reader with smoke, and direct him to a mirrored image far away so he or she misses the words of Jesus right under his nose that specifically reassured him that false prophets of doom and gloom like the Jehovah's Witnesses may be safely ignored.

  Hogwash, again! You’re not only a genuine idiot, Focus, but your imagination continues to run away with itself. Of course all who are NOT idiots have sense enough to know that JWs are very familiar with the words that lie in between verses 3 and 7 of Matthew’s account, and the same with Luke’s account. And those who are not as versed in the Bible as what JWs are have Bibles at their disposal which they can read anytime they wish, and are encouraged to do so. It’s outrageously stupid on your part to suggest that the WTS would attempt to pull something as you suggest off on people, and equally as stupid for you to suggest that such people are too dumb to read their own Bibles at their own leisure.

  Hey Focus: See my thumb? Gee you’re dumb!

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
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  Room 215

  Yadirf,

  Quite apart from the question of the soundness of Focus's argument and its exposition, does it not occur to you that it does your side a disservice when you open your reply with gratuitous insults and personal attacks?

  That's a shame, because a neutral observer would likely conclude that your rebuttal, otherwise thoughtful and well-presented, was not helped, but rather was vitiated by a deplorable mean-spirited recourse to personal attack.

  Apart from all questions of doctrine, right vs. wrong, etc. when will JWs and their apologists understand that neutral observers and people on the sidelines are repelled by Jws smug contempt for anyone who has the temeriry to challenge or question their dogma, their unwllingness to ascribe good faith, honor or decency to an opponent?
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  Frenchy

  Yardif:
  I have a couple of questions: Is the question in Luke different from the one in Matthew? Your observation: :::Note that Matthew’s account (v. 3) makes plain that the question the disciples asked had reference to Jesus coming again (his future “presence”), whereas in Luke’s parallel account (v. 7) such “presence” is NOT even mentioned. :::

  I’m confused about how you view these two accounts because your statement above seems to indicate that Jesus’ future ‘presence’ is not associated with the events mentioned in Luke YET you go on to say: ::: they each had something to add that their counterparts in the same book didn’t.::: which indicates to me you are saying that they are different versions of the same question and reply. Could you please clarify?

  IF these are but two different instances of the same question and reply, with each furnishing some detail omitted by the other, then it only makes sense to read the whole of both rather that combining portions of each. Even by taking in the whole of both accounts we are left with many pieces of the puzzle remaining, let alone taking bits and pieces of each and making yet another incomplete picture.

  Matthew 24: 1-3 Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”
  3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

  Luke 21:5-7 Later, as certain ones were speaking concerning the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that YOU are beholding, the days will come in which not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?”
• 

  ashitaka

  You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, DO NOT BE AFRAID. The end is not yet.

  ashi
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  AlanF

  Excellent points, Focus! The March 22, 1993 Awake! you referenced is a typically ridiculous Watchtower excercise in excusing itself from its self-appointed role as a "false prophet". I wrote a thorough expose of this article shortly after it came out in 1993. This can be found under the title "The WTS and the End of the World" here: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm . Related material, some of which is incorporated in that essay, can be found in Carl Olof Jonsson's The Gentile Times Reconsidered and especially The Sign of the Last Days: When?, and to a lesser extent in Raymond Franz's Crisis of Conscience.

  Yadirf, naturally, being a somewhat cracked Watchtower drone but nevertheless basically a drone, is unable to use reasoning to back up his objections any more than the writer of the 1993 Awake! article was able to excuse JW leaders for their false teachings. Really, the parts of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 referred to in this thread are not that difficult to understand, when read in context and without Watchtower-colored glasses on.

  The context of the opening of Matthew 24 is set by the end of Matthew 23. With respect to the coming end of the Jewish world, he tells the Jews: "34 Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, ... 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." Note the point here: "all these things will come upon this generation." (NASB, which I'll mostly use in this post). Jesus refers to this point again, in Matthew 24:34.

  Then, with respect to Jerusalem and the temple, Jesus tells the Jews, "38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!" Then in Matthew 24:2 Jesus tells the disciples privately that the temple will be completely destroyed.

  In Matthew 24:3 Jesus begins telling the disciples about the "things" that "will come upon this generation" (cf. 23:36) and about when he "comes in the name of the Lord" (cf. 23:39) and about the end of the Jewish world which occurs when the temple is destroyed: "... the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?' "

  Note that the NASB correctly translates the Greek parousia here as "coming" rather than the unsupportable "presence" as the New World Translation does. With this in mind the verse can be understood to mean something like, "What will be the sign that you are about to come?" rather than "What will be the sign that you have come?" This is perfectly in line with the parallel passages in Mark and Luke:

  "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all
  about to be fulfilled?" Mark 13:4 (NIV)

  "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" Luke 21:7 (NASB)

  Obviously, no one needs to have a sign that some event has already transpired, because the event itself is absolute proof that it has occurred. Thus, the Watchtower must claim that Jesus was talking about an invisible event that only certain "elect" would understand by a special divine dispensation given only to them. However, we will see later that this conflicts with direct biblical statements.

  Next Jesus, rather than giving a sign of the things that will be about to happen at some future date, gives the disciples a number of things that they should not be misled by and that they should not interpret as signs of what is about to come. Matthew 24:4 begins this warning with: "See to it that no one misleads you." What sort of things could the disciples be misled by? Jesus explains, using the connecting word "for": "5 For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will mislead many." Note that those who falsely come in Jesus' name cannot be claiming to be Christ literally (as that would not be coming in the name of Jesus but in their own name), but would be coming claiming to be representatives of Jesus. Who does that sound like?

  Continuing the theme of "things not to be misled by", Jesus says: "6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end." So, far from being signs that the end is about to come, or that Jesus is "invisibly present", these "wars and rumors of wars" are things that should not be interpreted that way. This proves conclusively that the Watchtower Society's claims about these passages, and the parallel ones in Mark and Luke, are completely out to lunch.

  Continuing further with this theme, Jesus says (note again the connecting word "for"): "7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes." So again we find Jesus warning the disciples against precisely the sort of thinking that the Watchtower Society has engaged in for some 120 years. Verses 8-14 go on to elaborate other things that would happen before "the end" but should not be interpreted as signs that "the end" is about to come.

  The fact that no one, including any self-proclaimed disciples of Jesus, could possibly interpret any supposed signs so as to know the approximate date of the coming of "the end", or that it would be about to take place, is proved by Jesus' warning in Luke 21:8: "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near'. Do not go after them." Who in this day is known for making such proclamations more than anyone else? Jehovah's Witnesses! So the Bible itself gives clear proof why no one should follow these false prophets. This proves that the JW 1914 doctrine is completely unscriptural.

  Matthew 24 gives further proof that those who claim to know "the time of the end" are false teachers: "42 Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming... 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will." Obviously, anyone who claims he knows, when Jesus specifically stated that his disciples could not know, cannot be one of Jesus' disciples.

  According to many other passages in Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus' coming would be absolutely unmistakeable. For example, Matthew 24 states: "27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be." The word translated "lightning" basically means "rays of light" in Greek, so the passage could just as well read, "just as rays of light come from the east and flash to the west...", which would describe sunrise. In any case, both lightning and sunrise are unmistakeable events, and certainly do not need someone claiming secret knowledge to point out their occurrence. This again proves that the claim of Jehovah's Witnesses to have special knowledge that Christ returned invisibly in 1914 is nonsense.

  Matthew 24 verses 29-31 completes the disproof of Watchtower doctrine: "29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." So again, the sign that Jesus' disciples asked about, and that Jesus gave about "the end" -- that it was about to take place -- was to be absolutely unmistakeable.

  Of course, the proof or disproof of a claim that certain events happened at a certain date is simple observation: if history shows that the event did not take place, then the claim is trivially false. We can certainly disprove the JW's 1914 doctrine this way. They claim that since 1914, war, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, crime and other unpleasantries of the human experience have been far worse than before. The facts show otherwise. For one thing, if these great killers of humans were operating on a grander scale than ever before, one would expect that the human population would drastically nosedive. But we see the opposite, the world's population more than tripling in the 20th century. This alone disproves the JW's 1914 doctrine. How about specifics concerning the supposed great increase in the historical great killers?

  Statistically, war in the 20th century killed the same percentage of population as it did during the previous centuries. Famine and pestilence kill far less of a percentage of population than ever before. Earthquakes kill about the same number of people each year as in the preceding four centuries, but because total population is much higher now, the percentage killed is at least four times lower than about 300 years ago. Crime is actually quite a bit less of a problem than it was during most of the four centuries preceding the 20th.

  Again, for proof of the above claims, see the references given at the beginning of this post.

  AlanF
• 

  SexyTeen

  Does anybody get the feeling that AlanF wants to be the Faithful & Discreet Slave?

  He tries to feed everyone with his crap reasonings. Mr. Alan F. is blinded by his master, Satan.