@WontLeave:
In case there are any lingering doubts about what "between the [two] evenings" means, the Bible clears this up.
And this is what you will offer upon the altar: young rams each a year old, two a day constantly. And you will offer the one young ram in the morning, and you will offer the other young ram between the two evenings. And a tenth part of an e'phah measure of fine flour moistened with the fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and a drink offering of the fourth of a hin of wine, will go for the first young ram. And you will offer the second young ram between the two evenings. With a grain offering like that of the morning and with a drink offering like its, you will render it as a restful odor, an offering made by fire to Jehovah. - Exo 29:38-41
If the second ram would have been offered after sunset but before dusk, that would have been the next day, thus not the second of the day, but the first of the following day.
I submit that you have misunderstood what this passage states regarding the sacrifice that should occur "between the two evenings" in order to sanctify Aaron's sons that they might act as priests, and what "between the two evenings" means in the context of the passover, which is the topic that @moshe initiated in this thread. I will explain below what "between the two evenings" means, but you clearly do not know what this means at all.
@bob1999:
Here's the part that doesn't seem right to me.
"This date corresponds to Nisan 14, which was when Jesus held the last valid Passover."
What you quote here refers to a date, but what date? Evidently what you quoted was referring to a date that corresponded in a particular year on the Gregorian calendar to Nisan 14, since Nisan 1, which is reckoned based on when the new moon nearest the spring equinox can be observed in Jerusalem at sunset, is the beginning of the year on the Hebrew calendar, and when moving 13 days to Nisan 14, the full moon would typically be observed then, the day when the Passover was observed by the Jews, but to what date does the part of the phrase you quote here, "this date corresponds to Nisan 14," refer?
Now you say "this part doesn't seem right" to you, but what you quote is incomplete without the date. This year, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses observed the Memorial of Christ's death on Sunday, April 17, 2011, for this date corresponds to Nisan 14...." Next year, however, Jehovah's Witnesses will observe the Memorial of Christ' death on Thursday, April 5, 2012, for in that year this date will correspond to Nisan 14, whereas this year Nisan 14 corresponded, as I already pointed out, to April 17.
In Matthew 24 Jesus tells us when the "end of the age" and the destruction of the temple will be. Until the end of the age and the destruction of the temple all Passovers were valid.
From a Christian standpoint, the last valid passover was observed by Jesus and his apostles in the year 33 AD, the day on which Jesus died. Upon Jesus' death, the Law of Moses was then fulfilled, so that, in harmony with the apostle Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 5:7, Jewish Christians would thereafter celebrate the Memorial of Christ's death instead of the passover, for "Christ our passover has been sacrificed" "once for all time concerning sins," and it is by this means that "we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time." (1 Peter 3:18; Hebrews 10:10)
The passover sacrifices that had been offered under the Law covenant arrangement, which was first, were "a shadow of the good things to come," but it wasn't possible for animal sacrifices "offered according to the Law" to take sins away, but the offering of the body of Jesus Christ in sacrifice as "our passover" under the new covenant arrangement, which was second, that was instituted by Christ on Nisan 14 "does away with what is first that he may establish what is second." (Hebrews 10:8, 9) Consequently, all subsequent passovers that had been observed by the Jews following Christ's death to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and even until today are no longer valid before God, for the new covenant arrangement instituted by Christ "does away with what is first," that is, the requirement to observe the annual passover, in order to "establish what is second," namely, the Memorial of Christ's death that began to be observed following Jesus' death by his Jewish followers that had formerly observed the annual passover under the Law, which Law was now "done away with."
Read Hebrews 8:13 "...ready to vanish away" Something that is ready to vanish away has not yet vanished away. And did not vanish away until the destruction of the temple in 70AD.
I think you misunderstood the apostle Paul's words here, for at the beginning of this verse at Hebrews 8:13, what does Paul say? "In his saying 'a new covenant' he has made the former one obsolete." In his saying at Hebrews 8:13, that "that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away," Paul was there making the point in this letter that he had written to the Hebrew Christians back in 61 AD, that by then, some 28 years after Jesus' death and since the new covenant had been in force, that which had been made obsolete, namely, the old Law covenant, had grown old and was "near to vanishing away" in the minds of those Jewish Christians that had formerly observed the Law. You have read more into Paul's words than is really there, but if you read the entire verse in context starting with Hebrews 10:7, it is clear that he was saying that the Law was near to vanishing away in the minds of Jewish Christians, and that is all Paul was saying here.
@WontLeave wrote:
Actually, the lamb was slaughtered on Nisan 14th and the actual Passover was eaten after sundown, on the 15th. We've been through this. Read Exodus chapter 12, like everybody else who understands when Passover occurred. Stop reading Watchtowers and read the Bible.
@wannabefree wrote:
I am trying to understand this, there seems to be confusion as to when this was actually celebrated.
Yes, I can see that.
Did the day begin at the first evening or the second evening? If the passover lamb was to be slaughtered between the two evenings and the day began at the first evening, then Nissan 14 would run from the first evening until the following first evening and this seems to make sense.
Your confusion lies in your not understanding what "between the two evenings" means when used in the Bible, such as at Leviticus 23:5, which you quoted. This is also @WontLeave's problem.
@wannabefree wrote:
Did the day begin at the first evening or the second evening?
@WontLeave wrote:
From what I've gathered, "between the two evenings" means from when the sun first begins its descent to when it sets. Basically, it's between noon and sundown. At first, I was under the impression it meant from one evening to the next: 24 hours. Exodus 29 helps to clear this up, because it's talking about offering 2 sacrifices a day: One early in the day and one late in the day.
Exodus 29 doesn't begin to answer @wannabefree's question. When you don't know something, you should just do as @wannabefree did and just say so. You are speculating, so it would have been more appropriate, IMO had you simply told @wannabefree that you really don't know the answer to her question, but that you were just guessing about this. It is more honest to say this than for you to pretend that you actually knew the answer to a question that by virtue of your telling her that you concluded what "between the two evenings" meant after reading Exodus 29 suggests to me that you clearly do not know.
So, the Passover was slaughtered in the afternoon and eaten that night. Since the Jewish day ends at sundown, the slaughtering would be very late on Nisan 14th and the Passover meal would be early on Nisan 15th.
And Jesus died on Nisan 14 and on Nisan 15, right? Is this what you are saying here?
The Jewish "hours" were 12 time periods between dawn and sundown, so weren't set like the hours we use now. The "1st hour" began when the sun rose and the "12th hour" ended when the sun set.
No, the Jewish day consisted of 24 hours pretty much as our day consists of 24 hours, except the way the morning hours were reckoned (i.e., "the third hour," "the sixth hour," "the ninth hour") were different than the evening hours (i.e., "the first watch of the night" (from 6:00 pm to 10:00 pm), the middle watch" (from 10:00 pm to 2:00 am) and "the morning watch" (from 2:00 am to 6:00 am), or, in Jesus' day, there were "the first watch" (from 6:00 pm to 9:00 pm), "the second watch" (from 9:00 pm to 12:00 pm), "the third watch" (from 12:00 am to 3:00 am) and the fourth watch" (from 3:00 am to 6:00 am)).
@snowbird:
As I found out in my research, slaughtering of the lambs began around 3 pm on Nisan 14 if Passover preceded a Sabbath, which was then called a High Sabbath.
What research informed you that the "slaughtering of the lambs began around 3 pm on Nisan 14"?
The Gospel of John shows this to be the case in the year Jesus of Nazareth was put to death.
Where exactly in John's gospel.
Also, it was around 3 pm that Jesus of Nazareth, the Lamb of God, died.
With this statement of yours, I agree, but it is unconnected to the two previous statements that you cannot possibly back up. Furthermore, I might add, that the passover always precedes a sabbath, which your research should have pointed out to you, especially since "the festival of unfermented cakes" is a sabbath that is observed on Nisan 15, which always follows the passover, which is always observed on Nisan 14.
@moshe wrote:
I wonder how many JWs who saw this topic were brave enough to ask their elders last night why they celebrate the Memorial on the wrong day? The inability of JWs to explain away their mistake is an embarrassment to them, but they are too stubborn to admit they made a mistake. Let's face the facts, if the F&DS was unable to realize their major error here and fix the memorial date decades ago, then what other doctrinal errors have they missed?
@garyneal wrote:
I concur. I was thinking about this last night as we were returning from the memorial *yawn*. Truth is, the witnesses appear to make sure to such painstaking details the 'truth' about everything and present this to their rank and file. To get something like this wrong in glaring. Even glaring still is the fact that simple facts like this can be checked simply by 'going to any encyclopedia.'
So it seems that you have concluded, @garyneal, that if you read something in the Bible that is understood by Jehovah's Witnesses in a way that is contradicted by something you might have read in "any encyclopedia," then this would be a "glaring" truth that the Witnesses are wrong. Am I understanding you correctly? Is this essentially what you are saying or have I read more into what you said than was your intention to convey?
They're quick to point this out to Christians concerning Christmas Day, by pointing out those errors they make themselves appear to be well researched and the closest followers of the 'truth' (facts) as possible.
Hold on there, @garyneal: Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that it would be error for anyone, including those who are themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, to attach special significance to Christmas Day or to any other day in the year, for we believe that while "one man judges one day as above another; another man judges one day as all others." (Romans 14:5) However, Jehovah's Witnesses as a body believe it would be offensive to our God if we were to celebrate a holiday that was not conceived and rooted in truth, or that may be pagan in nature.
Based on what Jesus stated to that Samaritan woman at John 4:23, Jehovah's Witnesses have discerned that because Jehovah is looking for "true worshipers," those that will "worship the Father with spirit and truth," that He would not think kindly of His people celebrating the notion that the baby Jesus, who was born in Bethlehem, was God in the flesh, that when shepherds were sleeping outdoors with their flocks, three wise men brought gifts to Jesus while he lay in a manger in the cold of winter. Consequently, those who become Jehovah's Witnesses are persuaded to let those who want to be a part of the world decide for themselves how they will worship, and we do not have an opinion as to what they might decide in this regard, but "God is a spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth," or we would say that such persons that embrace such falsehood cannot really be Jehovah's Witnesses.
Frankly, I don't see what Christmas has to do with determining whether the passover was celebrated on Nisan 14 or on Nisan 15. Perhaps it isn't even clear in your mind that Jesus died on Nisan 14; maybe you think that because Jesus celebrated the passover on the previous evening on Thursday, and when after his arrest during the evening hours on Thursday, Jesus was handed over by the Jews to Pilate for judgment on the following day during the morning hours on Friday, that the day on which Jesus was impaled was actually Nisan 15 and not Nisan 14.
Based on the Gregorian calendar that has been in use since Pope Gregory XIII abolished the Julian calendar back on October 4, 1582, the calendar from which ten days were lost in 1582, making the day that followed Thursday, October 4, 1582, Friday, October 15, 1582, where Thursday ended and Friday began at midnight. Using the midnight-to-midnight way in which the 24-hour day is reckoned using the Gregorian calendar, the day on which Jesus celebrated the passover was a Thursday, but everything that happened to Jesus after midnight Thursday would be reckoned on the Gregorian calendar as being a Friday.
But the Hebrew calendar uses an evening-to-evening, or sunset-to-sunset, way of reckoning the 24-hour day, so that when the evening light becomes apparent -- let's just say, for example, that evening was reckoned as occurring at 6:00 pm -- then we can say, based on how we reckon a 24-hour day on the Gregorian calendar as ending and beginning at midnight, that it was Thursday, Nisan 14 that Jesus celebrated the passover with his apostles and Friday, Nisan 14 that Jesus was impaled, the same day, for the Bible states that Jesus died "about the ninth hour" (Matthew 27:46), which would be 3:00 pm, or some three hours before 6:00 pm, when Friday evening of Nisan 14 ended and Saturday evening of Nisan 15 began.
IOW, when Friday evening began at sunset of Nisan 14, Jesus was very much alive and so was able to celebrate the passover with his apostles, but when Saturday evening began at sunset of Nisan 15 the following evening, some 24 hours after Jesus had celebrated the passover, Jesus had been dead for some three hours before the sunset of Nisan 15 had arrived. Put another way, Jesus didn't live for the entire 24 hours of Nisan 14, but had died three hours before Saturday evening, Nisan 15 had arrived. Again, instead of the Gregorian calendar's "midnight-to-midnight" way of reckoning the 24-hour day, the Hebrew calendar uses an "evening-to-evening" way of reckoning the 24-hour day.
Yet, here we have this and other errors standing out for those who are willing to look.
You say, "here we have this...," as if what you have here identified as to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe as to when the passover was celebrated -- either Nisan 14 or Nisan 15 -- is in error, but you have not proved that we are in error. I don't know if you would mind, but perhaps you wouldn't mind spelling out exactly what it is, you say, we have here, over what it is about Nisan 14 exactly that you have been here saying Jehovah's Witnesses err, because, to this point, you have been vague.
@WontLeave wrote:
Actually, Jesus died late in the day on Passover, the 15th. Stop reading everything through Watchtower-tinted glasses. Put down the literature, because it's sewing seeds in your mind and making you see things that are not there.
@wannabefree wrote:
If this is true, Jesus didn't die on Passover day, he died on the day of Festival of Unfermented Cakes.
Two (2) things: (1) The Bible is clear in pointing out that Jesus died on the passover, which is always observed on Nisan 14, the day on which the Jews observed the passover, which day is reckoned using a "sunset-to-sunset" or "evening-to-evening" way of reckoning the 24-hour day. This being the case;
(2) Since the festival of unfermented cakes, which is the seven-day sabbath that the Jews had been required to keep, was observed on Nisan 15, which is the day after the passover, Jesus could not have died on this day, for the Bible indicates that Jesus had died "about the ninth hour" (Matthew 27:46), which corresponds to 3:00 pm on Friday, whereas sunset or evening had arrived some three hours later, at 6:00 pm on Saturday, for the day after the passover is always a sabbath, and which is always observed on Nisan 15, the day on which the Jews observed the first day of the festival of unfermented cakes.
What this means is that Jesus had been dead some three hours earlier than Nisan 15, "about the ninth hour," on Friday, Nisan 14. The passover has never been observed on Nisan 15, which had been when the first day of the seven-day festival of unfermented cakes was to have been observed by the Jews.
If I understand this correctly, Passover celebration was only the time between the two evenings, then Passover was during the time of sun descent Nisan 14 to the moment before Nisan 15 began at sundown.
For Jesus to have celebrated the passover with his disciples, he would have had to have been alive, would he not? However, the Bible record is clear that Jesus was dead by Nisan 15, having died some three hours before Nisan 15 began, "about the ninth hour" (Matthew 27:46), which corresponds to about 3:00 pm on Friday, Nisan 14.
So wouldn't the question really be whether or not Jesus instituted the "Lord's Evening Meal" as a replacement of the Passover meal or was it instituted following the meal, after sundown on Nisan 15, the beginning of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes?
No, the Lord's Evening Meal was not a replacement for the Jewish passover and it most certainly could not have been instituted by Jesus following the passover seder on Nisan 15 for two reasons:
(1) The passover has never been celebrated on Nisan 15, although provision was made in the Law for its celebration "in the second month, on the fourteenth day between the two evenings," that is, on Iyyar 14 if for some reason an Israelite was unable to eat the passover on Nisan 14. (Numbers 9:10, 11; 2 Chronicles 29:17, 30:1-5)
(2) Jesus was dead on Nisan 14, so clearly he was in no physical condition to have celebrated the passover with anyone on Nisan 15.
@WontLeave:
The lamb or kid was to be slaughtered "between the two evenings" (or between noon and sundown) on the 14th of Nisan. At sundown, the 15th of Nisan would start, so it would have to be slaughtered by then to be on the 14th.
You quoted Exodus 12:5, 6, but regarding the lamb or goat that was to be eaten during the month of Nisan as a part of the Passover meal, Jehovah God commanded that "on the tenth day of this month they are to take for themselves each one a sheep for the ancestral house, a sheep to a house. The sheep should prove to be sound, a male, a year old, for you. You may pick from the young rams or from the goats. And it must continue under safeguard by you until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings. And they must eat the flesh on this night. They should eat it roasted with fire and with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens." (Exodus 12:3, 5, 6, 8)
Jewish tradition interprets "between the two evenings" at Exodus 12:6 to mean that the passover lamb was to be slaughtered from noon time until sundown, so that the passover meal itself would be eaten on Nisan 15, but the passover meal was not eaten on Nisan 15, for this would then suggest that the Hebrews actually didn't leave Egypt until some six hours after Nisan 14 had ended. The Bible indicates though that it was not "at midnight" on Nisan 15 that "the destroyer" passed over the homes of those having the blood of a lamb or a goat splashed upon their doorposts and on the upper part of their doorways, but that it was "on this night" -- Nisan 14 -- that they ate the flesh "with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens." (Exodus 12:8, 29; Hebrews 11:28)
Actually, the slaughtering of the lambs or goats "between the two evenings" means that the Hebrews killed these animals between sundown and dusk on "the fourteenth day of this month," that is, they did this when the afterglow of the sun gives way to darkness before the twilight that occurs after sunset. However, "between the two evenings" should not be confused with the sunset-to-sunset or evening-to-evening reckoning of the 24-hour day, but, as Deuteronomy 16:6 makes clear, the passover victim that was slaughtered on Nisan 14 was sacrificed "between the two evenings," that is, "in the evening as soon as the sun sets, at the appointed time of your coming out of Egypt."
In fact, on the day after the passover, God commanded the Hebrews to observe the festival of unfermented cakes, where on the first day -- Nisan 15 -- was to be a holy convention as well as the seventh day -- Nisan 21 -- was to be a holy convention as well, so they were commanded to eat unfermented cakes "in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month" for eight consecutive days, from Nisan 14 to Nisan 21:
"'Seven days you are to eat unfermented cakes.... And on the first day there is to take place for you a holy convention, and on the seventh day a holy convention. 'And you must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring your armies out from the land of Egypt.... In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.'" (Exodus 12:15-18)
And they must eat the flesh on this night. - Exo 12:8
This would be after sundown, making it the next Jewish day, or the 15th of Nisan. They had a few hours to prepare the meal, as opposed to how JWs interpret "between the two evenings", which would make it a race after sundown to slaughter, prepare, and eat the lamb by midnight.
It was on Nisan 14 when that the Egyptians, including the Pharaoh, came to the realization that all of the firstborn of man and beast had been put to death by this Tenth Plague that had been brought against Egypt, and it was on the night of Nisan 14 that there was "a great outcry among the Egyptians," so that it was "by night" on Nisan 14 that Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron, telling them to "Get up, get out from the midst of my people, both you and the other sons of Israel, and go, serve Jehovah, just as you have stated. Take both your flocks and your herds, just as you have stated, and go." (Exodus 12:29-32)
"Passover" and "festival of unfermented cakes" [...] are used interchangeably. The Passover was the first day of the 7-day celebration.
Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near. - Luke 22:1
The reason the festival of unfermented cakes was called "the so-called Passover" at Luke 22:1 is because the passover was the first of eight days when the eating of unfermented cakes was to occur, for Luke 22:7 go on to say that "the day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover victim must be sacrificed" on which day Jesus dispatches Peter and John to "go and get the passover ready for us to eat," meaning that Jesus had dispatched Peter and John to "get the passover ready" on Wednesday, Nisan 13, just before the passover was to begin that evening, on Thursday, Nisan 14.
Note that while we today would reckon the morning hours of Wednesday, Nisan 13, through 6:00 pm, and Thursday, Nisan 14, through 12:00 midnight as being "Thursday," and the morning hours of Thursday, Nisan 14, through 6:00 pm, and Friday, Nisan 15, through 12:00 midnight as being "Friday," the difference between Nisan 14 and Nisan 15 is that Nisan 14 was the first day of eight days when the Jews would be eating the unfermented cakes "on which the passover victim must be sacrificed," while Nisan 15 would be the first day of the seven-day sabbath, the second day of eight days when unfermented cakes would continue to be eaten until Nisan 21. By 6:00 pm, when Friday, Nisan 14 ended, Saturday, Nisan 15 began, and, by this time, Jesus had been dead for about three hours.
@djeggnog
