Truth - How obvious does it need to be?

by Nickolas 55 Replies latest jw friends

garyneal

Nice post Terry and LWT.
trevorbv

Speaking of which I read today a briliant article about why people don't accept the reality even if heavy proof is provided.
Some quotes:
"A MAN WITH A CONVICTION is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."
"If you want someone to accept new evidence, make sure to present it to them in a context that doesn't trigger a defensive, emotional reaction."
AGuest

This conversation is taking some interesting turns.
It is, dear Nick (peace to you!), and I would like to respond to some comments, including a couple/few of yours. Please, however, do not (you or anyone else) take my caps for anything other than emphasis. Too much effort to italicize, etc., right now... as I just want to get the thoughts out. Please, then, take no offense - I really am not trying to argue, debate, content, etc.. Now, then:
I... wonder how much more convinced I'm going to be in the months ahead that the Watchtower, to put it mildly, is not what it represents itself to be.
You're seriously not FULLY convinced, yet? That is quite surprising.
If you're clueless about the WTBTS and happy in your delusions there is no need to leave it.
There is another explanation, dear one, which we've discussed before and I will share again, below. In the meantime:
The Watchtower... will not, in fact, hear any evidence that contradicts its claims and forbids its membership from seeing it.
That's not entirely true, dear one. Although it took them over a year to change their position... and publish that change... they apparently did "hear" the "evidence" I sent them regarding their erroneous understanding and teaching regarding the "separation work." I am sure this was not the only time this occurred. Otherwise, they'd NEVER have any "new" light.
Western Society (and by that I mean those founded in Europe and the new world but the same thing could also be said about other developed, non-sectarian countries) weighs claims of truth on evidence.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the RC and Anglican Churches part of "western" society, as well as "founded" in Europe AND supporters/proponents of the new world? Indeed, wasn't the RC Church instrumental in establishing "western" society? Are not Protestants and other Bible Fundamentalists part of that society... and wasn't it Protestants who were among the first to settle the new world AND establish "western" society in the U.S. and Canada? Indeed, wasn't it religion... and the issue of religion... what was in the forefront, and hugely responsible... for creating "western" society?
The more sacrifice a person has made for their decision, the less likely they want to accept or even see any evidence that they may have been wrong.
While this is true in many cases, I think statements and thoughts like this miss a HUGE issue as to why people refuse... or fear... to leave a cult such as the WTBTS, dear Pirata (again peace to you!): they can see NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. For them, the organization was/is the LAST STOP - there is nothing BEYOND it. That is WHY they are so reluctant to hear things like what atheists/evolutionists/agnostics, etc., have to say. They really ARE those who are conscious... OF THEIR [OWN] SPIRITUAL NEED... and the former offer nothing in this regard. In fact, nothing is what they offer... and nothing is NOT a reality for these people!
Those who do this... who speak of and to such ones as of they're "stupid"... just don't UNDERSTAND the NEED these have, on a spiritual level. And so the primary result is a turn OFF... not a turning TO (atheism etc.).
You are trying to convince people who NEED "air" to breathe... that your belief that there IS no "air" is better for them. To them, they might as well STOP breathing... and just die. Which, you all MISS... is NOT survival. And they really are merely trying to survive... spiritually... and your words/beliefs/ridicule... is absolutely NO different to them than the false "air" they get from their religion. Forced to CHOOSE between the two (no air vs. false "air")... they are going to stay where they are. Why? Because they KNOW that although the "air" they're breathing may not be PURE... it is "air"... and it is keeping them alive.
For folks who do SO much talking about "survival of the fittest," some's understanding of SURVIVAL... is very minimal. As I have said before, not all can chuck their belief in a religion, or their faith in God... and still live. Spiritually and, for some, literally. Some will die due to a broken SPIRIT... sometimes at their own hand. Now, some may consider this "weak"... and I'm willing to wager many here do. But such a view is SO lacking in love. It says that you would RATHER a loved one die... spiritually, and perhaps even literally... than disagree with YOUR beliefs. How, then are you "better"... if that is your true preference?
Should you want your loved to stay in a false, oppressive, and destructive cult? Of course, not. But if you're not offering them what THEY need... in order to survive WITHOUT that cult... then you have no room to speak on it. Because you could be just as responsible for their death, literally, as that cult. If you're gonna yank a person's very foundation from under them, therefore... YOU should be prepared for them to hit the floor... and maybe HARD. Maybe do some real damage, from which they never recover. Maybe even injure themselves... fatally.
For those who roll their eyes at this truth, or otherwise don't really care... I have to say that I feel just as sorry for you, perhaps even more so, than I do for them. Because THEY... "do not know what they're doing." YOU, however, DO... and simply do not care.
(It makes me wonder sometimes whether it's right to burst someone's bubble. If not for the hurt and harm done by the Society, I would be well inclined to leave it all alone.)
It's right to burst it. The "wrong," however, comes in the HOW... and for what reason. If your issue is with the falsity of the WTBTS and its leaders... work on exposing THAT. But to take issue with the individual for his/her beliefs makes no sense. That you take issue isn't going to change much (unless you have a lot of money or prestige... and that's what they "respect").
It only means that the need to leave will be evident.
And many act on that need; however, that need is evident to many who are still in, yet they don't act on it. Why? Again: they don't know where else to GO... and still maintain their spiritual NEED. And while it's true that not everyone HAS this need, MANY do! Is it always steeped in God/Christ? No.
"If you want someone to accept new evidence, make sure to present it to them in a context that doesn't trigger a defensive, emotional reaction."
OR... that provides a means for THEIR need to be FILLED... not YOURS ("I need them to get that there's no God, evolution is a fact, etc."). Because it isn't about YOU and what you need, if truth be told. And, for some, you will be leaving quite a void.
Dear ones, their fear of leaving a belief/religion... is JUST as real as YOUR fear OF belief/religion. Again, it is the extreme poles that cause this dynamic between the two... not being able to accept ANY part of the other's knowledge/belief/understanding... and description of "evidence." You CANNOT argue physical evidence to a person of faith... because FAITH... is what one has IN SPITE OF THE LACK OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. "Though NOT beheld" (seen/touched/tasted/heard/smelled... with the PHYSICAL body/senses).
If you don't understand them (and please don't think YOUR experience means you do!)... or even TRY to understand them (and using books/opinions/theories by those who've never experienced the WTBTS)... anymore than those who are misleading them... and treat them like "idjits"... as those who are misleading them covertly do... HOW ARE YOU DIFFERENT??
Wanna get your loved ones out of the Borg? You can't do it by showing them that the WTBTS' prophecies were/are false. Those are irrelevant. Most of you who went in before and stayed after 1975 can attest to that. You CAN, however, do it by showing them what Christ is recorded to have said... versus Paul... and the WTBTS... and show where the WTBTS contradicts what Christ said. Starting with WHO should eat and drink... and WHY... FROM THEIR BIBLE (which is crucial):
"This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."
"Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink."
Living forever... and being resurrected... are the PRIMARY BASES of the teachings of the WTBTS. These two issues are what they use to RECRUIT. Yet, according to them, the statements regarding those "hopes"... only apply to SOME. Not to ANYONE. But that NOT what Christ is recorded to have said.
You HAVE to break down the BIG lies. You cannot accomplish anything (for any significant number of JWs), by taking issue with the LITTLE lies. True, they may seem big to YOU (i.e., that nothing happened in 1914... or 1975)... but they can and have made up excuses for those kinds of things. They CANNOT, however, change what Christ is recorded to have said... in their own Bible... that does not comport with what they TEACH.
I hope this helps... although, sadly, I'm not very hopeful. It all depends on whether you truly WANT to understand... and I don't get the impression many of you do. Rather, you just want to find fault, take issue, diagnose... and blame... while considering yourselves "above" it all. I personally don't see how that helps anyone... and the results seem to show that it doesn't.
Again, peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Mad Sweeney

If they are HAPPY within the cult, then the evidence is rendered powerless, when confronted with the Power of Belief.
This is basically IT.
I second the recommendation of Tavris and Aronson's "Mistakes Were Made" book. It isn't just about cognitive dissonance, but about how confirmation bias (and other mental gymnastics) are used to maintain beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
AGuest

Somehow, I don't think most of them are happy. Happy people don't treat those they claim to love the way they do. And I don't think most LIKE how they "have" to treat certain loved ones. The truth is... they don't KNOW that they have any other (feasible, in their eyes) CHOICE. And those who act like they're happy are either "dark" unloving persons inside anyway... or faking it.
Again, peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Mad Sweeney

Like most Borgish words, "happy" has been redefined by the Watchtower.
Happiness is performing works in obedience to the Borg. Obedience is the ONLY source of joy to them, unfortunately. So, the more they DO, the happier they think they are. It is an evil deception. They don't KNOW joy/happy any more than they know what "generation" means.
Happiness is tied to freedom, REAL freedom such as mentioned in the Bible that belongs to the children of God and that Ray Franz wrote about in "In Search of Christian Freedom."
Nickolas

Just passing through. I see a number of posts, including the usual War & Peace from Shelby. I'm looking forward to digesting that one word for word but I can't get to it until tomorrow.
Later.
Nickolas

Finally a chance to respond, although I haven't too much time this morning. You make some excellent points as usual, Shelby.
You're seriously not FULLY convinced, yet? That is quite surprising.
Absolute certainty on any matter requires conclusive evidence. While I have "known" for a long time that the WTBTS is not what it represents itself to be, up until now I could not put forward the argument effectively. If I was to go toe-to-toe with, say, an elder who has been steeped in the Bible and Watchtower doctrine for decades I would not have prevailed. I would now.
That's not entirely true, dear one. Although it took them over a year to change their position...
I am familiar with this from earlier posts, Shelby, but I can't recall the details. I am interested. If you will provide me with a link I'll go back and read about it. A scan of the communication between you and the WTBTS would be enlightening.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the RC and Anglican Churches part of "western" society, as well as "founded" in Europe AND supporters/proponents of the new world? Indeed, wasn't the RC Church instrumental in establishing "western" society? Are not Protestants and other Bible Fundamentalists part of that society... and wasn't it Protestants who were among the first to settle the new world AND establish "western" society in the U.S. and Canada? Indeed, wasn't it religion... and the issue of religion... what was in the forefront, and hugely responsible... for creating "western" society?
Yes of course, but that's not my point, which was presented within the context of the consideration of evidence to determine guilt or innocent, truth or falsehood, which is secular. It was, in the case of the United States for example, how it was set up by society. I cite in particular the works of Jefferson, Franklin and Madison who went to great pains to separate church from state. The First Amendment alone is enlightening in that respect.
It's right to burst it. The "wrong," however, comes in the HOW... and for what reason. If your issue is with the falsity of the WTBTS and its leaders... work on exposing THAT. But to take issue with the individual for his/her beliefs makes no sense.
A light went on when I read this same sentiment from you some time ago, as you may remember. You've reinforced it here, for which I am grateful. I sometimes lose sight of that dynamic. Given a rational hearing, the evidence mounted against the WTBTS is sufficient to crush it, but by so doing it could crush the faith of someone who has dedicated a lifetime to believing in it. The loss would be devastating in of itself, but the consequences could be far worse if it was accompanied by a loss in the individual's core beliefs when those beliefs are what have sustained him or her through life. I need to be careful. Which goes to your next point:
And many act on that need; however, that need is evident to many who are still in, yet they don't act on it. Why? Again: they don't know where else to GO... and still maintain their spiritual NEED.
From my perspective that is the best of many good points in your long post, Shelby, which you go on to broaden. Where to go after the Society in which you have placed your faith and trust and devotion for decades has been exposed for what it really is? All other organised Christian religions have been absolutely trashed by the relentless Watchtower indoctrination process, and faith in the Watchtower has been effectively equated with faith in God itself. Even some of those who have left still see it as "closest to the Bible" or even "the closest thing to true Christianity". Both those sentiments can be debunked with further expert biblical comparisons and, then what? Is the next step atheism? For some who have left the Society, yes, but it is not a state of mind that everyone can live with. So, where do people who want to maintain their faith in God and Jesus go after they are disabused of their beliefs of the Watchtower?
I realise that my atheism puts me at a disadvantage in this respect. (The famous Emerson quote comes to mind - Who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you're saying.) Those who know I am atheist will be less disposed to actually hearing what I have to say, or may even be afraid to hear it. What alternative to the Watchtower can I offer? MS brings up the book "In Search of Christian Freedom". I have thought about ordering it in addition to the other Franz book that I now have. I may get some insights there.
Curtains

nickolas in replying to your op
it seems to me that truth is a strong buzz word and the WTS uses it freely. If an organization insists they have the truth most people are prepared to take their word for it not considering that the whole thing may be a lie.
I realise that my atheism puts me at a disadvantage in this respect.
I have seen a change in how you promote your atheism and you are no where near as militant as when you first joined.
AGuest

Finally a chance to respond, although I haven't too much time this morning. You make some excellent points as usual, Shelby.
Thank you, dear, dear Nick (peace to you!)... for reading and responding to my treatise... AND for having an "open" enough mind to even entertain what I've shared. Thank you, sincerely.
up until now I could not put forward the argument effectively. If I was to go toe-to-toe with, say, an elder who has been steeped in the Bible and Watchtower doctrine for decades I would not have prevailed. I would now.
Ah, yes, I understand. Although I have to say that I was surprised on more than one occasion at how the R&F just turn their "faith" and spirituality over to the elders. They always said, "Make the truth your own," but I found that many really didn't. Unlike the Beroeans, most didn't and still don't have a CLUE as to who and what God and Christ were supposed to be [like] (at least, as far as is stated in the Bible) versus what the WTBTS publishes. And it was always curious to me that they took Paul's words over Christ's. Folks don't really know WHO they're following... which is why some folk's faith is easily shipwrecked when they realize the WTBTS isn't "it."
If you will provide me with a link I'll go back and read about it. A scan of the communication between you and the WTBTS would be enlightening.
I will find and post a link; however, no scans available. Unfortunately, when I finally let go of the Organization, I let go of everything: all letters, books, tracts, etc. Never thought I'd need any of it again. But I am not lying and I have posted in the greatest detail I can remember, so I'll have to ask you to trust me. I understand, though, if you can't - physical evidence needed and all that - LOLOLOLOL!
I cite in particular the works of Jefferson, Franklin and Madison who went to great pains to separate church from state. The First Amendment alone is enlightening in that respect.
Forgive me if I sound contentious - that is not my intention - but wasn't the purpose of such works AND the First Amendment to keep government out of religion... by preventing the establishment of a State church (although the U.S. initially did establish one), as had been done in England... thus allowing the way for FREEDOM of religion... and NOT the abolishment of it?
Given a rational hearing, the evidence mounted against the WTBTS is sufficient to crush it, but by so doing it could crush the faith of someone who has dedicated a lifetime to believing in it. The loss would be devastating in of itself, but the consequences could be far worse if it was accompanied by a loss in the individual's core beliefs when those beliefs are what have sustained him or her through life. I need to be careful.
Thank you for getting my point, which I marvel that others do not. I cannot see how they SAY they care... but then have absolutely NO qualms about crushing what another person "is". No different from the WTBTS... and I find it quite interesting that they can't see that. My only conclusion is that, like the WTBTS, they, too, are just as blind. At least, to the essence of what makes some people who and what they are. Take that away... and you can take away a person's entire sense of self. What's left, then?
Some can give up their selves... and survive. Some give it up and replace it with another "self." Some, though, cannot. They can see no way to do so... and no point. Love, howver, does not attempt to negate another person's sense of self... regardless of what you believe about its foundation or origin. It's not your problem or business. It might, in love, point out evident flaws. But it does not crush or annihilate another human being's basic foundation of self.
For some, that "foundation" is God and Christ. And so long as the person is living that "foundation" honestly... and without harm to ANY others... no one else should have any say. THAT was the "spirit" behind the works of those you mentioned... and the First Amendment, was it not? Which is why many immigrate to the U.S.... besides the opportunity for prosperity?
Where to go after the Society in which you have placed your faith and trust and devotion for decades has been exposed for what it really is? All other organised Christian religions have been absolutely trashed by the relentless Watchtower indoctrination process, and faith in the Watchtower has been effectively equated with faith in God itself. Even some of those who have left still see it as "closest to the Bible" or even "the closest thing to true Christianity".
Unfortunately, yes, to all you say here.
Both those sentiments can be debunked with further expert biblical comparisons and, then what? Is the next step atheism?
Not necessarily... and THAT is my point!
For some who have left the Society, yes, but it is not a state of mind that everyone can live with. So, where do people who want to maintain their faith in God and Jesus go after they are disabused of their beliefs of the Watchtower?
The TRUTH is that there is no WHERE to go away to, dear Nick. There is only a WHOM. Actually, after being disabused of their beliefs in ANY religion... there is only a whom to go away to. Because no matter where ELSE such ones go, they will eventually see the flaws in those organizations, too. Sooner or later, they are going to be disillusioned... again. Unfortunately, because they BELIEVE that they NEED religion in order to have a relationship with God/Christ, when religion LETS THEM DOWN... as it WILL do... they take it out on God and Christ. They believe God and Christ have let them down. But had they heeded God in the first place ("This is my Son, the beloved - listen to HIM!")... and Christ afterward ("My sheep hear my voice")... they would KNOW that religion will not... CANNOT... completely fill the "need" they have. Unless their need is for people... more than it is for God and Christ. In that case, "fellowship" with others who believe as they do will take precedent over following God, by following Christ, no matter where HE (Christ) goes... even if you have to follow him alone. Many did.
I realise that my atheism puts me at a disadvantage in this respect. (The famous Emerson quote comes to mind - Who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you're saying.) Those who know I am atheist will be less disposed to actually hearing what I have to say, or may even be afraid to hear it.
This is true. Few who claim to be "christian" are truly "sons of freedom" such that opposing views don't frighten or repel them. They live in SUCH fear of losing their faith... that they close their minds to almost everything. Won't even hear/entertain it. Some may think that about me, but I would disagree. That I don't agree with someone's point of view doesn't mean I won't hear it. I KNOW God is "with" me, so I don't fear hearing what others think and believe and why. Because if God truly IS with me... what have I to fear? Nothing, IMHO.
What alternative to the Watchtower can I offer?
Ummmmm... Christ? I mean, the WTBTS calls itself "the Truth"... which is why many are attracted to it. Yet, Christ said HE is the Truth. Since you want to offer them truth (you do, don't you?)... why not the SPIRITUAL Truth (Christ)? I mean, I get it that you're not into much more than physical/empirical truth, but there really IS more, dear one.
MS brings up the book "In Search of Christian Freedom". I have thought about ordering it in addition to the other Franz book that I now have.
Not the best choice (Christ himself, alone, is the BEST choice)... but certainly not the worst (though, one must consider whether one is remaining a "chaste" virgin... having been called... and cleansed... by Christ... or "sullying" themselves all over again with religion. You know, the whole "dog returning to the vomit" thing...).
I may get some insights there.
You certainly may. Mr. Franz was an honest, kind-hearted, and dear man. He tried to "right" HIS wrong as to the WTBTS and should certainly be commended for it. I commend him. But I would be lying to you if I told you that that was the best course. Christ really is the only Way, dear Nick... and the only Door to God. There really is no other way for such ones to enter in before the Most Holy One of Israel. All those who come in place of that One are thieves and plunderers... and are attempting to break into the "house" of God... without going throught that Door. I'm sure you understand what I am saying... even if you don't agree with it.
Again, thank you, sincerely... for engaging with me here. I truly appreciate it and have enjoyed the interchange. Peace to you... and your entire household... and may JAH bless!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA

Truth - How obvious does it need to be?

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