http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOnc-5Ci6vY
The whole show. Enjoy.
Miracles For Sale
by cofty 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Pams girl
If I could post a link, Id by playing "Jesus he knows me" by Phill Collins right now........
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cofty
Something has changed with youtube links I can't get them to work anymore?
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Deputy Dog
cofty
Do you feel you were "manipulated", after you left the JWs?
"Every time somebody raises their hands in church and says "amen" they are under the influence of group-think. The level of manipulation in evangelical preaching varies from mild to extreme but it all manipulative."
Are you having a problem with the personal nature of my question? I noticed you didn't answer.
One could say that "communication" is it's self a sort of munipulation. After all, how are these videos any different, t hey admit they start off with a deception.
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cofty
Deputy Dog I have read your post four or five times and I am still struggling to understand your second point.
Did I feel "manipulated" after I left the JWs? - Well its a bit off topic but to some extent yes, and no I don't have any problem with the personal nature of your question, why would I? There are many ex-JWs on the board but not so many ex-JW ex-christians and I am happy to share my experience.
I am convinced that every church demonstrates the characteristics of a cult to a greater or lesser degree. The Scottish Baptist church I worshipped with would be at the benign end of the spectrum but were still manipulative whether they realised it or not.
Every activity of a religious group is designed to achieve "group-think" - sermons, bible study groups, corporate singing, open prayer times, baptism, Alpha courses, etc etc. As soon as a group adopts a position that all its members should accept the bible as authoritative it is being willfully manipulative.
On your second point I really don't understand, sorry. How are these videos any different from what?
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Deputy Dog
cofty
"Did I feel 'manipulated' after I left the JWs? - Well its a bit off topic but to some extent yes, and no I don't have any problem with the personal nature of your question, why would I? There are many ex-JWs on the board but not so many ex-JW ex-christians and I am happy to share my experience."
As I've read your posts and comments over the many months, I suspected that was the case. I would guess that is the case for many that call themselves "ex-christians".
"On your second point I really don't understand, sorry. How are these videos any different from what?"
How are these videos different from... " evangelical preaching" as you call it? Aren't they trying to change people's minds and using trickery to do it?
"I am convinced that every church demonstrates the characteristics of a cult to a greater or lesser degree."
You're painting with a very broad brush, I think you need to visit "every church" before you make a statement like that. I won't speak for all churches, but, let me say I agree with you, that many do, and many practice "manipulation". On the other hand, you don't have to be a "church" to manipulate or to be a cult. Politicle parties are a perfect example, Who manipulates more than them? Are they cults ? Are advertisers cultists, when they try to manipulate you into buying somthing? Are the Boy Scouts a cult? They manipulate children, usualy for the good.
"Every activity of a religious group is designed to achieve "group-think"
I would say that is the activity of political groups. In fact, I believe you are getting politics in the church confused with faith in God, something the WT never could understand, for them it's ALL about control.
Yes, many of the things you listed, can be used or are performed in such a way as to being munipulative, but not always.
People unite into groups for all sorts of ideas and reasons. You seem to focus only on the groups you don't like, the religious ones, and call them cults.
"As soon as a group adopts a position that all its members should accept the bible as authoritative it is being willfully manipulative."
It's funny, I was just talking about this with a Christian friend of mine. There is a sense in which we agree with you. Some people in churches think it's there job to change people's minds, they don't see the problem with what they are doing, nor see it as "manipulation". It's munipulative when you aren't up front with someone or when you "trick" someone into agreeing with you. Many cults like the JWs and Mormons are really good about telling someone what they want to hear before they join, to get them in. Then after a commitment is made, they tell them what they really need to believe and what's expected.
Don't confuse the assembly and worship, of people who are already of like faith and like mind/"think" as munipuation, they come together because they already agree, think and believe the same way.
What is wrong with a group that says "this is what we believe and if you agree, come join us"? What's wrong with a group of people saying we believe the bible is the Word of God, right up front, and asking others who already believe the same way, to join them? How is that munipulative?
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WTWizard
You cannot buy a miracle. You cannot pay God enough money to stop hating you--even if that money is gold and silver. And you cannot pay someone else to give you a miracle on your behalf and expect it to work. Either God would allow the miracle without the payment, or he will block it regardless of how much you pay.
Hey, maybe if it gets paid for with worthless currency--like the Zimbabwe dollar, or the US dollar in a few years...
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cofty
Deputy Dog I agree that all sorts of organisations are guilty of encouraging "group-think". As you said political parties are a classic example, often members can't say what they think about an issue until they have checked their own opinion against the party-line. I remember watching a documentary film by Noam Chomsky called "Manufacturing Consent" which highlighted many of these points and opened my eyes to how much we are manipulated without realising it.
Personally I am a big fan of football (soccer) but I am almost unique among football fans in not having a team I support. I just can't bring myself to join in with the, "my team right or wrong" mentality.
What's wrong with a group of people saying we believe the bible is the Word of God, right up front, and asking others who already believe the same way, to join them? How is that munipulative?
I think what's wrong with that is that there is not the remotest possibility that anybody would arrive at the conclusion that bible is the word of god without external pressure to conform to that unsupportable view. It is not an evidence led conclusion; its an example of the intellectual sacrifice that is required for the benefits of group membership.
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