did jesus really exist?? (page 2)

borgfree

I recommend this book. I hope the link takes you there. It is The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid=1012943654/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_75_1/104-0714433-1039108

Borgfree

"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks

CPiolo

Some articles against:

The Christ by John E. Remsberg
. http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg00.htm

The Search for the Historical Jesus by James Still
. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/jesus_search.html

Some for:

The Quest of the Historical Jesus:A Critical Study of its Progress from Reimarus to Wrede By Albert Schweitzer
. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/schweitzer/

Bible Gateway: Historical Jesus
http://www.ntgateway.com/Jesus/

Funny subject really....but when you think about it Jesus great teachings...sermon on the mount...illustrations...parables...miracles..are not mentioned by the early writers, like Paul. Why Paul could have settled many a argument if he quoted some stuff from Jesus! But he does not. The 'gospels' only get a mention in the second century and its clear they were written well after the 'event'. IMO 'Jesus' was a creation.

ISP

heathen

just remember that the bible does suggest that in the day there is indisputable evidence of his existence it will mark the end of civilization as we know it.apparently he is not a very happy camper at the time that is why it says in faith alone they will believe and happy are those who have not seen and believe.I am sure that the question of his existence is something everyone at one time or another has asked themselves or others.he is definately a very controversial figure in history in that people have done great evil in his name usually because others chose to believe differently,as i have just looked at the situation in armenia where the orthodox church is committing all kinds of inhumane acts of terrorism against the jw religion .IMO it is something you have to figure out for yourself.

CPiolo

borgfree:

Strobel admits to having made up his mind before writing the book. Much like the Watchtower, he then looks for evidence to support his opinion. I haven't read the book myself, but this certainly raises the question of his objectivity.

Some criticism of Strobel's book:

The Rest of the Story (1999) by Jeffery J. Lowder
. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/strobel.html

CHALLENGING THE VERDICT
A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel’s The Case For Christ
. http://infoweb.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/CTVExcerptsIntro.htm

The Case for Christ by Ray Bohlin
. http://www.probe.org/docs/case.html

Some pro-press:

A Tough Journalist Looks at the Case for Christ[.i] by Wayne Jackson
. http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/toughLawyer.htm

[i]The Case for Christ

. http://www.doesgodexist.org/SepOct99/TheCaseForChrist.html

CPiolo

Five Gospels

Rem,

I have not found any evidence to substantiate the Bible's claim that Jesus existed. I'm curious to hear what evidence you have found that supports this claim.

Since I'm a "newbie" and hence little is known about my viewpoints, let me start by saying that I am not attempting to debate or prove any spiritual aspects of Jesus. I also realize that there is limited historical evidence to establish Jesus' existence, and I don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

This is simply a reply to your post asking me to provide some evidence that I have found supportive of the claim that Jesus was a historical person.

These are: the Writings of Cornelius Tacitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas (Roman historians), Flavius Josephus (Jewish historian), Thallus, two references made to a report on the crucifixion by Pontius Pilate from Justin Martyr and Tetullian, refernces in the Talmud, and Caiaphas' burial cave (excavated in 1990). These establish historic evidence that a man named Jesus lived, died, and was later deified in a time and a place described in the New Testament.

Also, there are many scholarly works that others have provided links to.

I find this evidence compelling enough to believe that a historical figure (named Jesus) existed and that this figure seems to correspond to the Jesus characterized in the New Testament... it may or may not be compelling enough for you.

FG

borgfree

CPiolo,

Thanks for your comment. I have read the book and whether he was a believer before or after his writing I think his information is usefull.

Borgfree

"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks

rem

FG,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, this is all 'evidence' that I have seen before. I have to admit that it does seem rather convincing when listed out in the manner that you have presented it. But I have found that when I actually look at each piece of evidence in greater detail, it's seems that they are not nearly as compelling as many would like us to believe. As I stated before, I am mostly interested in contemporary accounts. Really, none of the examples you gave were contemporary, but were second and third hand accounts. Also, there are several examples of clear interpolations by later Christian apologist redactors. I think the silence of contemporary secular writers is quite interesting, but even then, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Thus, I still remain unconvinced either way, but I do lean toward a mythical Jesus a bit. But really, whether or not a man named Jesus existed is really unimportant. What is more important and extraordinary is the Christian claim that this man was raised from the dead and was the Son of God. The evidence backing this claim is much more vacuous than the evidence in favor of Jesus actual existence.

rem

"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain

gumby

Fred:..But billions know that Jesus existed 2,000 years ago.
Billions BELIEVE he existed 2000 years ago but sadly many go off of what they are told rather than realize it by hard study and research that he did exist.
Nice to hear some serious posts from you fred.

ISP

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did jesus really exist??

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