@Jonathan Dough wrote:
The reference to the land paying off its sabbaths is a direct reference to Leviticus 26:32-35 which also should have been brought to the readers' attention.
@djeggnog wrote:
Why? Well, not the reference I made in this thread to "the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon" by the Jews during which "the land [would pay] off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years" didn't come from Leviticus 26:32-35, but to Jeremiah 29:10 and 2 Chronicles 36:21.
@Jonathan Dough wrote:
We understand completely why you want to ignore Leviticus 26:32-35 and pretend....
Who is this "we" to whom you're referring, @Jonathan Dough? I don't know any "we" contingent here on JWN so, please, humor me. Just as I told you before when you first brought up the book of Leviticus to me, I'm telling you again: I never made a case here about something contained in the Bible book of Leviticus. Never. That's a stupid argument. You should stop using it, and if you don't why you should stop using it, then you'd better ask someone. Anyone that thinks mention of this book enhances their argument -- and I mean you, @AnnOMaly, and anyone else that does so -- is confused, delusional and clueless, all of these, and I'm not kidding. I'm quite serious.
I'm sure it has never occurred to you, not even once, that there were things foreshadowed during the sixth century BC when Jeremiah prophesied God message to the Jews as to their complacency toward God and toward life itself, telling the people that as long as they are doing good works, they will have God's favor. Don't worry about anything. Find a church or don't find a church; your choice. We are Franzites and our founder was once one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and he taught us that our salvation is more about our consciences and how we feel about those taking the lead among us than obedience to God's commands. Those men that played the prince over us cannot possibly have been appointed by God's holy spirit. No way! Why, they're more imperfect than us!
They talk about a spiritual paradise, but I haven't seen it! They recruited us really just to enrich the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, so that they wouldn't have to work a 40-hour week. Those men in Brooklyn, Franz included, expected us to send them our hard-earned money so that they could retire off our contributions, as did Raymond Franz, our fearless leader, did. He was on the governing body, so when he was disfellowshipped, he used the millions he had salted away to buy a six-bedroom home in Southern California, in Malibu, beachfront property where he could actually walk from his home to the Pacific Ocean, and it was just Ray and his wife living in that big house.
Our cult leader is now dead, but he certainly taught us that when our conscience bothers us, we should not ignore it, but speak out and in our disgruntled state tell the truth about the truth.™ We spent a lot of time in field service over the years; at least 12 hours a year and sometimes as much as 20 hours a year; add another 250 hours attending meetings and the money we sent to Brooklyn for the magazines and books we studied every week. We made those men in Brooklyn rich and we should get a deal like Ray Franz got; if not millions, at least a few thousand dollars and a trailer.
We are Franzites because he left us two books containing his wisdom; he was disfellowshipped, but this doesn't mean that he wasn't one of Christ's anointed brothers, so his words have almost as much power as the words of Peter or Paul. We recommend to new people coming to JWN that they read Ray Franz' book, Crisis of Conscience, which is just one of your cult's holy books, because we need to recruit as many people as we can over to our faith so that we can have what Jehovah's Witnesses would deny us, namely, salvation.
By putting faith in Ray Franz' words, we know we will be saved because we know Ray Franz is in heaven and will plead for us in God's spiritual temple, if that's where Ray Franz is; both he and Jesus will be pleading for us because we were so misunderstood by the elders at the Kingdom Hall. At least here on JWN we definitely know that our prayers are being heard by God, even if we view with disdain God's commands about blood, and have become materialistic, have let our speech go down into the toilet and are enjoying sexual experiences that we never could before when we were attending meetings with other Jehovah's Witnesses, even though some of our children somehow contracted chlamydia and have had it for awhile, so that they will not be able to have children. Our children to love God, but children do make mistakes.
Some of our children have made us happy grandparents, because we don't believe in abortion and we know God will eventually make it possible for our children to find someone willing to get married and start a ready-made family, maybe not a Witness, but hopefully not a pedophile, please! While enjoying our Christian freedom from theocratic rule over us, some of us managed to contract genital herpes, Herpes simplex, HIV/AIDS, human papilloma virus (HPV) and Kaposi's sarcoma-associated herpes virus (HHV-8), and many other loathsome diseases, and this was because we were in love with the person that had no idea that they even had the disease, and I pray to God everyday that he will help doctors to find a cure. It's not like it's leprosy, but the pills we have to take now are expensive.
In heaven, we won't have these bodies, so it's just a bit hard knowing that we will just have to put up with the inconveniences we face now in the meantime, for not everyone is going to be lucky in love. It's all good though. Like those men in Jeremiah's day, they were saying "there is peace! when there is no peace." (Jeremiah 6:14) This is the kind of confused, delusional, clueless thinking that many of you Franzites do.
We have been here talking about the discipline meted about my Jehovah to the Jews toward the end of the seventh century BC because they were delusional and clueless, arguing whether they were punished for only 48, 50, 68 or for the full 70 years. If one has faith in Jehovah, this isn't really the point, is it? The point is that no matter how long it was, Jehovah had said by his prophet Ezekiel, "So should you possess the land?" (Ezekiel 33:26) We need to be deserving so that we might "inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5) And you need to think about getting out of the cult and returning to Jehovah before it's too late to do so. When you read Jeremiah and Ezekiel, I'm sure you see none of the things that I've mentioned in this message, do you?
There are people here on JWN right now that believe they are saved; some of them will tell you that they pray to Jesus daily and some others will tell you that they have been born again. What's so crazy about this is that many of those that are saying these things were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses and so have reason to know that they're delusional to believe they can marginalize Jehovah God, pray to Jesus and be one of those that survive the conclusion of this system of things when Jesus and his angelic executional forces bring judgment at Armageddon.
But it is the exact same period, and because Moses promised that paying off the Sabbaths would end while the Jews were in captivity, in Babylon, and therefore not upon their return to the Promised Land, the Society's 70-year Return Theory is proven utterly and completely false.
I don't know a thing about any "70-year Return Theory," but maybe you could start at the beginning and explain it to me.
@Jonathan Dough wrote:
You are actually weakening your case when you rely on Leviticus to prove that the land of Judah began to pay off its sabbaths to fulfill 70 years, and had you quoted the entire relevant verses instead of select portions you would clearly see that your theory actually disproves 70 years, an exact number to the month according to the WTBS, because it ended while the Jews were in Babylon, not when they supposedly returned. You fall one or two years short. This is a common trick used by the Jws with these verses.
@djeggnog wrote:
What "common trick"? When did I make a case here about something contained in the Bible book of Leviticus? About what exactly was this "case" of mine?
@Jonathan Dough wrote:
It's a common trick, or ploy, because the Society doesn't show all of its cards and treats so much of this as a game.
I don't play such games; this isn't some card game. People's lives are involved in the work that we are doing around the globe and we know that we will not reach everyone. Many will perish, we know this, but we feel we have to do our best to find as many people that want to survive the end of this system of things.
@Jonathan Dough wrote:
The issue isn't what you believe because most of us don't care, but what the Watchtower Society teaches....
@djeggnog wrote:
Is that right? If you have been imagining here that you have been discussing with me is what the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society teaches, then you aren't aware that the WTS is the just corporate publishing arm staffed by Jehovah's Witnesses that produces the literature, including Bibles and media items, that Jehovah's Witnesses use in their Christian ministry. If you have imagining here that you have been discussing with me what Jehovah's Witnesses teach in their ministry (which is what I had imagined you were doing), and you don't care what my views are, then maybe I should withdraw from this thread, at least I should withdraw from it to the extent that I stop exchanging posts with you since, as it happens, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
@Jonathan Dough wrote:
You're splitting hairs unnecessarily. When I speak of the Watchtower Society I include the ministry, although I wouldn't go so far as to call it "Christian" as the great majority of Christendom regards that term. As far as you withdrawing, by all means feel free to hit the road. I don't think you will be missed, necessarily. As for your views, it's impossible to tell what they are or whether they harmonize with the Society's because you repudiate so much of their teachings, walk your own path when you think it suits you and easily turn on your brothers, like those who wrote Setting the Record Straight who are actually on your side. Your cheap lawyer arguments are easily seen through. Confuse, deflect, ignore ... I suppose you can't help that.
I don't let non-Jehovah's Witnesses or ex-Jehovah's Witnesses tell me what I believe or ought to believe, because many of such persons, especially those that were formerly one of Jehovah's Witnesses, left our ranks without really knowing that Jehovah's Witnesses ought to be studying the Bible and making disciples based on the things they learned, and not to be studying our literature in lieu of their studying the Bible. No one told anyone to do the latter, and this is usually the reason many end up leaving us because they didn't learn and no one actually took the time to teach them before they got baptized that if after six months or a year you cannot do more than recite the scriptures you've committed to memory and you are incapable of using the Bible to make a fundamental defense of your faith as a Christian, that you cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
We are disheartened when people leave us, but we are not surprised, for Jesus taught: "Many ... will seek to get in but will not be able." (Luke 13:24) We know that Satan has demanded to sift us as wheat and that opposition will come from persons of one's own household. (Luke 22:31; Matthew 10:36) If anyone wants to leave us, we don't want to prevent them from leaving, and this helps us to see 'the distinction between the one who is serving God and the one who has not served him.' (Malachi 3:18)
And, to further help us understand the Society's position, exactly what month, in layman's terms so others can understand, did the 70 years begin? June? July? August? September? How about October as the Society teaches?
I cannot give you the Society's position; the Society is not a person. As I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I can tell you what I believe with regard to this question you ask as to when it was the 70-year period of desolation began. It was in the month of Tishri on the Hebrew calendar, just before the festival of ingathering was to be celebrated on Tishri 15-21, 3155 AM, October 11-17, 607 BC, Julian, October 4-10, 607 BC, Gregorian, but it couldn't be observed there in Jerusalem because Nebuchadnezzar had destroyed Solomon's temple in Jerusalem before the festival of booths could commence.
Why do you ask?
@djeggnog
