by StandFirm 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Thank you Standfirm for the thread, may you start many more !
You have prompted the good folks of JWN to post some of the most logical, erudite,truthful, informative and well argued thoughts on this matter to be found anywhere on the Web!
Please let us know your reaction to the points made.
Thank you.
Even Jesus did not stop people preaching independently outside the group, "Anyone who is not against you is for you." (Luke 9:49-50). Does the current Watchtower organization teach this?
By the fourth century, teachings were so diverse it was not clear what was "Christian"and what was not. Constantine asked for the Christians to settle the matter, and the Nicene Creed was the result. A big "losing" doctrine was Arianism. It is apparent that any central authority, if it ever existed, was gone by then.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_historical.html
By the fourth century, teachings were so diverse it was not clear what was "Christian"and what was not. Constantine asked for the Christians to settle the matter, and the Nicene Creed was the result. A big "losing" doctrine was Arianism. It is apparent that any central authority, if it ever existed, was gone by then.
That was actually the beginning of a "centralized authority".
Before that the chruch was far more focused on survival of its memebers, LOL !
It had no power or infulence like it was to have after it became a "state religion".
" I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me. "
I see no "organization" or "governing body" mentioned there.
Only a simple, clear statement from Jesus himself.
StandFirm writes:
“… The subject is whether or not God has an organization.
“The dictionary defines organization as this:
“‘an administrative and functional structure’”
Questions for StandFirm:
-- Were there true Christians in the centuries leading to the 19 th and 20 th centuries?
-- If so, were those true Christians part of one administrative and functional structure used by God?
-- If so, what was that one administrative and functional structure used by God?
Marvin Shilmer
StandFirm writes:
“Those who disobeyed the organization were thrown out.”
Question for StandFirm:
-- Was being thrown out because of disobeying a what or a who? (“However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed.”— Gal. 1:8, NWT)
Marvin Shilmer
IF we define organization as standfirm has then THE organization that God had when Jesus came was the Sanhedrin run by the Pharisees and we ALL can read how happy Jesus was with them, LOL !!
The bible shows us a clear heistory of God dealing with individuals and NOT organizations.
I will take a messy democracy over a dictatorship any day, any time. German efficiency help lead us to the concentration camps. American freedom, freedom that the WTBTS takes for granted but certainly enjoys,functions overall.
By the fourth century, teachings were so diverse it was not clear what was "Christian"and what was not. Constantine asked for the Christians to settle the matter, and the Nicene Creed was the result. A big "losing" doctrine was Arianism. It is apparent that any central authority, if it ever existed, was gone by then.
I disagree. The Bishops of Rome had been established for hundreds of years. Peter was the first, then Linus and so on. I wonder when, exactly the 'great apostasy' happened. Which Bishop of Rome was in charge. Arianism wasn't a just a big losing doctrine. It was heresy. How do we know? For those of us who believe the bible is the word of God, the proof is in the bible when Jesus told Peter that he was the rock that Jesus would build HIS church on. He also said that the gates of hell would NEVER overcome it. The first 40 Bishops of Rome follow. It is also interesting to note that although there have been several 'anti-popes', none of them have changed the churches doctrine. Respectfully, DC
Here are books that didn't make the bible. Diverse in content.
http://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha/
Arianism became heresy after the Nicene council. Before that, it wasn't. The council of Nicea was made up of 317 bishops, which does not suggest a succession, but a spread.
