"Good News" for the SWINE CLASS! New ... (page 2)

ladonna

A lot of research, focus.......errrrrrrr sorry, FOCUS,

This means the dubs will be off to the third world countries in droves where the people will believe anything to get food, medicine, ect.....

Ana

I still feel that at the present time, the internet is not the main factor responsible for these decreases. I know alot of people in the general area who are inactive or disfellowshipped - the people that would account for decreases, and the internet was not a determining factor.

By far, the biggest group of those who leave are young people. Others are just worn out. Very few actually leave because of any doctrinal issues; more so out of the 'lack of love' displayed in congregations or elder screw-ups in a judicial committee or otherwise.

I do think the internet is a "sleeper", in that likely there are many looking at things "forbidden" and it is only a matter of time before people start leaving in large numbers, very quietly or openly stating it is because they have been misled.

It is the Witness mindset that has changed in those countries that have the steady decreases. Witnesses are not like they used to be, and it is these new attitudes that will cause the remaining thinking Witnesses to look at things that "they shouldn't" and demand answers.

Path

Englishman

One more point.

Now we can really see why the WTBTS have been applying shunning tactics for virtually any misdemeanor.

Shunning = gagging. Gagging a disillusioned person stops that persons new knowledge and fresh insights being imparted to regular witnesses. So, stifled of the REAL TRUTH, witnesses have stumbled blindy on for decades, forbidden to listen to those who have been enlightened and as a result, have left the org.

The internet has simply stopped the gagging from continuing to be effective. Also, many people have decades of supressed fury at the WT's injustices, as a result the WTBTS is being paid back in full for all of it's misdealings.

Well, IMHO, it's their own fault. They have had it coming for years. Quite honestly, I believe that they ain't seen nuthin' yet!

Englishman.

Truth exists;only falsehood has to be invented. -Georges Braque

funkyderek

I still feel that at the present time, the internet is not the main factor responsible for these decreases.

I agree. Internet penetration obviously has a strong correlation with standard of living, so the chart would probably look very similar if for example, GNP per capita were used to rate the countries.
The correlation is very strong, but correlation is not causation and the Internet may not be the major contributing factor, just a symptom of the same cause.

--
"Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything." -Robert A. Heinlein

GinnyTosken

At the very least, I wish religions were required to use disclosure statements similar to ones used by credit card companies and insurance companies. Investment firms are required to offer a prospectus--why not religions? Even a warning label like the one on cigarettes would help.

Ginny

Skeptic

I agree the Internet is not the only factor, but I still think Focus is on to something.

Market saturation is one factor. The Dubs have been in North America for so long that there simply is not any more people to convert on a significant scale. Every business reaches a market saturation point eventually.

The Borg has become so oppressive that even Dubs who believe the party line are worn out. They are tired of no fun and no free time and the endless, mindless repitition. That is taking its toll as many who drop out believe in the JW faith but have given up.

I think the Borg is so self-absorbed that they are stupid. They are tightening the reins and oppressing the brothers further. If they loosened up a lot, they would actually keep more members!

Then there are many who just see the religion for the crock that it is.

The Internet's large effect I suspect is preventative. New studies do not view the Internet as evil and with their new found interest, run "Jehovah's Witnesses" through search engines. Once they read what they find, the study stops. I wish I had objective data so I could study this further. No new members means a decrease. Of course, new members can be gained the same way that other churches gain members: by members having children.

Also, young JWs are often computer literate and youthful curiousity can cause them to visit apostate sites. Plus, many of these youth know the religion is a crock as well.

Just my two cents.

Richard

LDH

As JT would say, "This NET THANG is really bringing down the WBTS house of cards."

Lisa

sf

"I assure you that however much you may Hate the Watchtower, you do NOT Hate it more than I do."

And I assure you that I abhor this criminally corrupt book publishing rackett much more than you ever could. You see, hate for men like these is a fierce, intense sensation and if you think your hatred is beyond comparison...

I challenge you. Will you take it? The Challenge?

sKally

If man was supposedly created in gods image, then.....holy krap...we're all doomed.-sKallyWagger

Focus

Pathofthorns wrote:

I still feel that at the present time, the internet is not the main factor responsible for these decreases

I cannot prove you wrong, as I cannot prove myself right. Also, you may actually be right. I stated in the original post that to establish causation is a lot harder than to establish correlation. There is insufficient data to do this. To get the required data would necessitate a test which would be impossible to carry out.

By far, the biggest group of those who leave are young people.

And young people, who as you say make up the largest number of leavers, belong to a group which, in "developed" countries, has the most knowledge of and fondness for the Internet... see?

Note that this Internet thing works in more than one way. The young jW or potential convert might encounter (either directly or via an intermediary) Internet-sourced information that makes him or her think again about "the truth".

But, getting the number of jWs down is best achieved by concentrating on minimizing the baptism i.e. infection rate, rather than by concentrating on maximizing the attrition ("leaving") rate, for obvious reasons.

And with more and more accurate information on the web and net exposing the Watchtower's smoke and mirrors, baptisms get harder and harder to make. All it takes is one friend or loved one of the target victim to do the research and find the material and make it known, before the indoctrination and brainwashing has had too much effect.

Very few actually leave because of any doctrinal issues; more so out of the 'lack of love' displayed in congregations or elder screw-ups in a judicial committee or otherwise.

True without a doubt. But I reiterate - the attrition rate is less of a key than the (generally higher) baptism rate. Your whole post is devoted to the attrition rate. Consider carefully the equation I provided in my first post...

I do think the internet is a "sleeper", in that likely there are many looking at things "forbidden" and it is only a matter of time before people start leaving in large numbers, very quietly or openly stating it is because they have been misled.

I think in the West, the "sleeper" has already woken up.

--
Focus
(Kick in the door! Class)

Focus

funkyderek wrote on Feb 6, 2002 at 07:04:

Internet penetration obviously has a strong correlation with standard of living, so the chart would probably look very similar if for example, GNP per capita were used to rate the countries.
The correlation is very strong, but correlation is not causation and the Internet may not be the major contributing factor, just a symptom of the same cause.

Tell me, do you make it a habit of contributing to a thread without reading the initiating post? Do you just read the last one? Share with those of us less intellectually gifted than yourself how your above-reproduced insight provides anything new by reference to what I had posted right at the start:

Focus wrote on Feb 6, 2002 at 01:50:

Note, however, that this evidence is associative and therefore does not prove a causative link. Some other parameter which is correlated well with internet-penetration might even be the actual "cause" - not that there is a single cause, in the case of something like this. But I have performed the same test with the obvious alternative parameter, Average Wealth*Earnings, in place of Internet Penetration, and the correlation is nowhere as strong.

<GRIN> "Read and think before writing, not after"... a wise dictum.

And I did the equivalent of the GNP test, and reported the result. In fact, if you look for significant differences in ranking between the Internet penetration order and the GNP order, you can focus on the issue and see that the Internet penetration rank-correlates better with WTBTS performance than does GNP. Not that it makes Internet penetration more likely to be "causative" - as I said right at the beginning.

Sorry to say, your contribution said absolutely nothing that I had not said in my first post. Thanks for the echo service. Now I have re-echoed it all. Now - may we have some New Light, please?

--
Focus
(Helloooooooooo there! Wheel Reinvention Class)

"Good News" for the SWINE CLASS! New ...

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