My situation

by outsmartthesystem 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  outsmartthesystem

  I've been slowly but surely and intentionally fading over the last 5 years. It started with me stopping going in service. Then I stopped commenting. I removed meself from the ministry school and now only go to meetings sporadically. I go because I love my wife and children. My children are very young but my wife is still very much controlled by the borg. I don't want my wife to think I've completely abondoned her.

  What is maddening is that my wife pleads with me to return to Jehovah and that the witnesses have the only truth that matters. The maddening part is that my wife is a blind follower. She can't explain why she believes in 607BC as the fall of Jerusalem, but she believes it because she is told to. She believes that Christ came back invisibly in 1914 because that is what she is told to believe. She simply follows everything she is told to follow without an understanding......she just trusts it to be true.

  Last year she challenged me to "look up" the issues that I struggle with.....apparently sure that I would see how right the Watchtower Society is. And then we would talk about those issues. I informed her that I would do that. I also informed her that I would not let anythign stop me from conducting a true investigation (i.e. I don't care if the material is considered "apostate"or not.....all I care about is factual information. It does not matter who writes it). She was not happy but finally accepted it.

  It should be noted that when I talk with her about all these issues....she has also requested that we have a three way discussion with her elder father. She is sure that he can help me "see the light". I am yet to agree to this as I feel that my findings will be a self incriminating free ticket to disfellowshipping and a subsequent guarantee that my life will be a hell of a lot more difficult after that (family/shunning/etc)

  She has agreed that she would do some research as well. Although it certainly won't start until I present my findings. I at least got her to agree to look at some sources outside of the society publications....but she doesn't want to touch "apostate material".

  8 months later I am on page 190 (single spaced) of a letter to her that explains my feelings and hits many topics I don't agree with straight on the head. Much of my information would found on apostate websites. Some was from Carl Olof Jonsson. Some from Ray Franz. Some from Steven Hassan. Etc. Some was from my own newly cleansed and objective brain. My hope is that if it is in letter form (although giving references) from me to her.....perhaps she will actually read it. I think I may be able to succeed if I can throw in facts taken from unapproved sources....as opposed to saying "here...look at all these facts in this book by this apostate author". And when she disagrees.......then I would beg her to do whatever research is necessary to prove it wrong.

  I want to be pointed and honest (because trust me.....this woman appreciates honesty more than anything) but not overbearing or pushy with the topics in my letter. Therefore....one by one....if you all would be so kind....I'd like to post the topics I've written for your critiquing. I want to make an impression and cause her to think (because she has agreed to do so) but I don't want it to hit so hard that she starts blocking.

  I sincerely appreciate everyone's responses
• 

  Broken Promises

  Rather than making it a letter, my suggestion is that you use the information as a basis to have a discussion. The WTS wants families to have a Family Study Night - maybe this could be your excuse to study your research once a week.

  I suggest that you DON'T involve her elder father in these discussions - apart from him being able to use your research against you to frame you as an "apostate" it really should be a discussion between the two of you. Pull rank as the husband and spiritual head of your family to ensure this discussion kept between you and your wife.

  But don't have it written as a 200page thesis - having it written down could be used against you (if she takes it to her father) and also - what woman with young children has the time to read a 200 page opus?
• 

  cantleave

  Have you tried the "family worship night" approach?
• 

  Anony Mous

  First of all, you have a PM. Second, definitely do not include an elder (regardless of family status) in your discussion. The only reason the elder will show up is to prove you are an apostate and disfellowship you.

  I agree with slowly introducing her to some of your findings. Don't go apes*t on her if she doesn't accept it, all you have to do is seed some doubts, tell here where you found it and let her do the further investigation.
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  Thank you thus far. I haven't tried the family worship approach because....well.....we don't do it. I have disagreed with so many things for so many years that I couldn't (with a good conscience) lead a family study of some crap made up by the society. I think if I suddenly started the family study arrangement and the topic eventually wandered out of the book and into one of my topics....she may suspect (accurately) that I am trying to trick her. Plus I have a 5 year old that would most certainly retain some things from the discussion and almost certainly tell her grandparents "what daddy thinks".

  I don't think I should involve her father either......but therein lies the problem. She trusts him more than anyone on the planet (including me). She truly believes that if I refuse to talk to him then all of my research was nothing more than a witch hunt to bash the society. But if I sit down and go over each topic with him then she'll truly believe that I am "looking at both sides" in my efforts to find the truth. If I can listen to every argument he makes.....contemplate.....study.....meditate....... and refute them (in a respectful manner of course) I think she'll be more apt to listen to me as it "proves" that I am being "open minded" even though the final result she expected (me happily crawling back to the organization) didn't happen.

  Unless I make the effort to learn the "society's responses" to my issues.....I think she will automatically assume that whatever I say is an underhanded effort to shipwreck her spirituality. She trusts her father and swears up and down that no matter what topics I bring up....he will gladly discuss and will not throw me under the bus. Part of me believes that....part of me does not.

  So do I take the risk (in not talking to him) that she'll automatically shut me off because I have bad intentions? OR do I take the risk that he throws me under the bus anyway?

  That's why I got the crazy idea of writing everything down for her (she wouldn't turn it in to her dad). Letting her read it. Maybe one topic per night. Encouraging her to look up anything and everything that will refute my concerns and share it with me. I thought by doing it that way.....she would be forced to do some research while "helping me regain my spirituality". I also thought that by the time she finished with the whole letter....she may encourage me NOT to show it to her father so as not to risk disfellowshipping. That's what happens in my perfect little world.
• 

  flipper

  After reading this - I do agree with the posters who said NOT to have her elder dad sit in on your discussion with her. Here's the deal OUTSMARTTHESYSTEM- your father in law is first, foremost, and ALWAYS will be committed to showing allegaince to the WT society organization. If you are sitting in front of him AND your wife you are sitting in front of what they consider " two witnesses ". Your father in law will be listening to your views - NOT as an objective observer or listener - but with ulterior motives of assessing your faithfulness and level of " spirituality " according to WT society standards. In other words - he won't be listening to you for HIM to change he'll be looking for something to take back information wise to his fellow elders. And DON'T think he won't. Blood IS NOT thicker than water when it comes to Jehovah's Witnesses and the WT society. The WT society ties always take precedent over human ties in the minds of most JW's - especially elders. That is how they are trained to think.

  I think you have a better shot at just having a calm, loving chat with your wife in private . Otherwise you not only risk alioenating her by making her choose between elder daddie dearest or yourself. It doesn't HAVE to be a choice - don't put HER in that position, or yourself. Take things slower and just gradually reveal things to her. I just think it will work out better for you without elder daddy involved. Just my opinion from experiencing many things myself. Best of luck to you
• 

  Think About It

  Outsmartthesystem........welcome to the forum and congratulations on waking up.

  You are moving too fast and in danger of getting yourself DF'd and/or losing your family. Slow it down and do not show anybody that paper. Only use it as your personal confirmation that the WTS is full of crap. With your wife a true believer and her father an elder, you have a tough challenge ahead. Just continue to fade on your own and chip away at her. Offer to do fun things with them during meeting times that may cause her to want to miss meetings. There was a guy on this forum before who tried to get his wife out overnight and it was a trainwreck.

  Think About It
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  OK. I think I am being convinced to leave elder dad out of the picture (even though I was planning to talk to them separately) (she wanted it to be a 3 way conversation.....I was thinking about considering it if it was just one on one and then one on one)

  I posted another thread....with one of the topics that concerns me.

  I agree that I need to slow it down a bit. Probably best not to run her over with a mack truck, right?

  What do you think about presenting one topic at a time? (maybe one every couple of months or so?) I have about 20 different topics ranging from 607BC to birthday celebrations to the changing of "this generation"

  My reasoning for presenting it in written form is that I believe I can trust her that she won't show it to anyone....even dad. And I wanted her to have every last point (for that topic) at her disposal to think about, research, or refute. When you have conversations....many times the main points can be easily forgotten even one day later.

  We've had a few discussions before. I hate to admit it but the very first one we had I ruined. I got angry and she immediately threw up her shield. We've had two since then. In both, I calmly brought out some points that she simply couldn't answer....she didn't like that feeling....and said "I'm done talking about this." If she begins to have a doubt, she'll flip the switch off and refuse to discuss it. My hope was that by reading and researching what I've written to her........on her own free time.....without the pressure of a potential argument or even the embarrassment of admitting in front of me (as in....during an actual discussion of the matter) that she might be wrong.....maybe...just maybe she might begin to come to that conclusion on her own over time.....without the initial automatic response of getting defensive.

  Then again.....I very well may be crazy.
• 

  Rocky_Girl

  She will give the paper to her father. She believes that it is poisoned with apostate teachings (true) and the only way to "cure" you is to have an elder help you. She trusts him more -you said that. Also, 200 pages is intimidating for anyone. As a copy editor for theses and dissertations, I can tell you that it is hard to read that much research, even with an interesting subject.

  How about this idea: Ask your wife to help you design a family study for your daughter. My folks did bible stories for us, very simple. Each of you read the story from the bible yourselves. Tell your daughter the story or act it out with your wife. Then, ask the kid to tell you what the story teaches her about God. Focus on the loving and forgiving nature and try to downplay the killing and judgment. This opens the discussion without getting your wife's defenses up. She will become accustomed to thinking of God on her own using the bible and eventually she will see that it does not jive with WT teachings. Once she realizes that the JW view of God is not accurate, she will start to question the other things. Be subtle and woo her away, don't try to force it. Good luck and welcome to JWN.
• 

  Rocky_Girl

  PM me if you would like some ideas for kid-friendly bible discussions. I have done lots of it for my kids, mainly because I want them to develop a sense of spirituality without being bogged down by religious dogma. There are tons of common sense lessons in morality and social responsibility in the bible if you look for it.