My situation

by outsmartthesystem 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  out4good3

  "look up" the issues that I struggle with.....apparently sure that I would see how right the Watchtower Society is. And then we would talk about those issues. I informed her that I would do that. I also informed her that I would not let anythign stop me from conducting a true investigation (i.e. I don't care if the material is considered "apostate"or not.....all I care about is factual information. It does not matter who writes it). She was not happy but finally accepted it.

  Issues that you struggle with......

  That is my biggest problem and the first point I make with every JW that broaches the subject of their faith and why I don't see the supposed "logic" in it. I got fatigued long ago of always having to approach any issue with the WT and JW organization from a position of weakness or feign that something was just wrong with me.

  I don't people understand, especially witnesses, how much havoc this approach wreaks upon a person's self-esteem and subconsciously reinforces and pushes in their faces the supposed supremacy of the WT and the information they put out.

  They can never be wrong.

  It always have to start with being a problem you are having.

  And even if they can be proven wrong, you have to "wait on them" to change or further clarify any issue before you open your mouth.

  It should be noted that when I talk with her about all these issues....she has also requested that we have a three way discussion with her elder father.

  No way would I ever agree to that. This is the classic double-teaming that they like to do, not with an eye to listening or agreeing to anything you say, but to enforcing the towing ot the WT line at any costs.

  Five years ago, I "encouraged" two elders that came to my house to "shepherd" me, I suspect at my wife's insistence, to leave for being to condescending and trying to chastise me, a grown man in my own living room, with crap reasoning that they'd learned from the latest DC.

  They, and all my wife's JW friends know better than to even "go there" with me.
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  Thanks Rock. So basically you are just suggesting writing/acting/telling our own little book of bible stories to the kids? sounds like a good start but how to I stop her from throwing her own WT doctrinal little snippets in there. Example - "Well Junior....what did you learn about this story about the neighborly samaratin?" "I learned that we should always show love to others"? Then wife says "yes, and soon you won't have to worry about helping others like that and love will surround us because the new system is right around the corner....aren't you looking forward to that?"

  And even if she uses just the bible for this project....what stops her from running into the other room afterwards and breaking out the literature to immediately start studying for the thursday night meeting?

  It is also my belief that even if we use just the bible for this project.....she will try to cross reference it with the "bible story" book. Ya know....cause it has pictures and what not. What happens when I say "no....no literature...just the bible"? I am afraid even then she'll get defensive and wonder why I am preventing my children from learning about God "the correct way.....through His slave".

  Just trying to think of all scenarios.
• 

  nugget

  I was similar to your wife but had doubts of my own which meant that although worried by my husbands doubts I was able to be open minded about his research.

  Take a different tack with her and ask her to read the sixteenth wife about the wife of Brigham Young and the Mormons. This helped me a lot because I could clearly see the cult like aspects of their faith and couldn't understand why mormons believed as they did. When I expressed to my husband that I couldn't understand why anyone would be a Mormon based on this tarnished history his response was why did I think that JWs were any different? This helped to get me thinking and become curious about JW history.

  This is a slow process and requires a great deal of perseverence espeacially at the moment when your wife is in denial and will have shut down mentally. She will not research herself as she will be worried about what she will find.

  I think you have a big issue if your wife trusts her father more than you and I would not include him in your discussions nor would I put anything in writing unless you wish to be Df'd.
• 

  ABibleStudent

  Hii outsmartthesystem, I am sorry that you have to go through this frustration with your wife. I agree with Think About It!! If you love your wife and children, slow down there is no rush for you and your family to get out of the WTBTS. I would suggest reading “Progess (I think?) in helping my wife to see the ‘truth’” and ”Seeking suggestions on reaching my wife ...” posts to give you more ideas about how to help Free the Mind of a JW spouse. The most important thing is to reasure your wife that you love her and the children more than anything else in the world. Study the Bible and pray with your wife and children without using the WTBTS literature. Read scriptures (i.e., John, Hebrews) from begining to end about following Jesus Christ without cherry-picking from the Bible or using WTBTS literature. Talk to your wife to learn what things make her very happy and plan family outlings to satisfy your wife's desires. Introduce your wife to "Worldly" people who may have common interest with your wife and who she might like. If you want, you can also send your wife anonoymous emails ("You've Got Mail") to hopefully speed up the process like I am sending to JWs. Good-luck!!

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  ABibleStudent
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  outsmartthesystem

  Hi Nugget. I sure appreciate the suggestion.....but playing the devils advocate that I always do....let me make a retort:

  My wife tends to mentally shut down if she sees a hole in her beliefs. That is natural. But she will get visibly and admittedly angry if she hears anyone accuse her of belonging to a cult. Not that I would or have done that. I wanted her to read what Steven Hassan has to say about cults....and I would love for her to read about the Mormons....but my fear is that as soon as she starts making the connection that she is reading this book at my request.....and the book is speaking about how to identify cults.....she will become livid at my sneaky and subtle hint. And then off goes the switch.

  I say this because about a year ago I think, we were watching a show on 60 minutes about a Utah cult leader that was on trial for inappropriate behavior with teenage girls. There were so many parallels with the society it wasn't even funny. Circular reasong....information control.....never questioning the leader.......any changed teachings were the result of God pouring out his blessings etc. She watched it in disbelief and even remarked how she couldn't believe how blind those followers were. Absolutely NO connection was made that SHE is that same blinded follower. It was heartbreaking.

  Another issue is that her dad has convinced her that every last bit of JW history is spelled out in finite terms in the Proclaimers book. Therefore there is no real need to look elsewhere unless you are trying to be obstinate and dabble in apostate teachings.

  As you can see there is a big problem with her father. No matter what fear or doubt she may have that I uncover....i fear will be erased the following day when she tells her dad about it and he prescribes her society based material that squelches it.
• 

  WontLeave

  Here's a simple point you can bring up. This shouldn't raise too many red flags, but it will enlighten her to the fact the "fds" is not a reliable source of information or doctrine, when they can't get something as simple as the Memorial day correct. Glean the information that won't be too alarming. The paper itself springboards from that topic into what JWs would consider "apostate" language, so you might just want to cite the portions of the Bible which back Nisan 15 as the proper day of Passover. I always assumed JWs had the day right and didn't even realize there was a discrepancy between JW and Jewish Passover dates. As it turns out, the Jews are right and JWs are wrong.

  Another good source for "between the evenings" being afternoon is the current book study rag, “Bearing Thorough Witness” About God’s Kingdom; footnote on p.28:

  Prayers were o?ered at the temple in conjunction with the morning and evening sacri?ces. The evening sacri?ce was held at “the ninth hour,” or about three in the afternoon.

  Interestingly, they fail to give any Scriptural reference, but the sacrifices they're talking about are commanded by Jehovah in Exodus 29 and the one at 3pm was "between the two evenings" (NWT).

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses Hold the "Memorial" on the Wrong Day?
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  sd-7

  Hi, there. The simplest approach to trying to explain 'reality', as it were, to your wife, is to NOT use 'apostate' sources. Rather, use Watchtower literature alone. The evidence needed to convict the WTS is in the literature itself. If you really intend to do a thesis, let it be strictly WT-based. No one can argue with the very logic they claim to believe in. That's what convinced me--and one of the biggest reasons why Ray Franz' books had such an impact on me.

  Involving any elder in this discussion is the equivalent of a cyanide pill here--you're toast if you discuss those outside sources with an elder.

  My sole advice is to use the Watchtower and the Bible only. It's your best shot at making it work. Outside sources like Bible commentaries--especially those the Society has quoted from in the past--are also useful. Just so long as it's not from 'apostates'.

  Good luck, pal. "You're gonna need it."

  --sd-7
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  Thanks Wont leave

  This is very interesting. I've never investigated this topic

  Always took it for granted (just like everything else)
• 

  Anony Mous

  Recent things I noticed in the WT and noted to my wife:

  - Interesting to see that there are hardly any scriptures in this section on disfellowshipping.

  - (We were in the KH Library when she was unwell) Look here, it shows how to calculate 1914 based on the Pyramid of Geza isn't that funny what they wrote back then.

  - I am so worn out, the meeting was so tiring especially with so-and-so, he can't read well enough in my opinion.

  - Tell your elders that you heard from someone that in the latest elder school it was said they should discuss the new guidance on blood with people that are pregnant and young parents. Ask them for the document (they won't give it to you) and if you can discuss it because you want to talk to the doctor about it. During the meeting they'll tell you straight to your face from the document (don't have the wording verbatim but it goes something like this): "It's important when something happens, it's better for your child to die for Jehovah than to give in to the doctors and this can be very difficult for young parents to accept".
• 

  Black Sheep

  They are trained to not listen

  They are trained not to read apostate literature, websites, etc..

  Don't go against their training.

  They are trained to be teachers and told that they have a message that can save your arse from their killer god, so ask questions.

  One question

  Don't change the subject

  Don't let them change the subject

  Make them do the research to prove to you every shonky statement they make.

  If you have WT literature that contradicts what they say, ask them to read it to you and explain it. You shut up. Make them do the talking. You need them to tell you they are wrong. They can't do that while you are flapping your chops.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/190996/1/Why-did-my-old-friend-do-this-to-our-friendship-Please-help-me-understand

  Good luck

  Chris