Idle question about Abraham and Human Sacrifice

by corpusdei 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • corpusdei
    corpusdei

    I don't have my usual resources in front of me, so I can't fact check this, but there's been something bothering me. One of the things mentioned quite often as evidence of the wickedness and evil practices of the false religion that surrounded ancient Israel is the practice of child sacrifice (Baal and Molech being the frontrunners as I recall).

    But .....

    Didn't God tell Abraham to kill his own son Isaac as a human sacrifice? It was a test of Abraham's faith, of course, but Abraham didn't know that. If Abraham doesn't commit the murder and human sacrifice of his son, he disobeys a direct order from God and proves his lack of faith. If he does, well, he's just committed the murder and human sacrifice of his son. The stone cold truth of the matter is that Abraham was fully prepared, ready and willing to open his own childs throat in worship to Jehovah, the Great and Terrible. How is the fact that God was just joking, fooled you there (tehehe), make it OK that he not only just asked Abraham to kill his child, but fully expected Abraham to go through with it to prove his faith?

    Am I wrong here?

    I'll have to add this to my list of questions to ask the next Witness unfortunate enough to knock on my door.

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    Jeremiah 32:35And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

    Hmmmmm . . . excellent question.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    A rabbi at Jewish Theological Seminary, which is conservative, said that nothing can make this kosher. No amount of gloss can change its stripes. It shows aboslute terror. And once saved by God's hand, how does Isaac go about and live a life not tormented by demons and serious ptsd. The Bible doesn't gloss over it. Some Jewish commentators wrote that Abraham knew God would intervene. Small comfort for Isaac. I bet he wanted to be in Ismael's shoes then. I believe the Koran has the story the other way around. It is grossly disturbing. Isaac is shown no personhood. Anbraham was one pervertued dude. Jehovah' should be censured heavily.

    Casey anthony might be willing to do the sacrifice. Some Nazis. The Nazi high command who fed his children poisoned chocolates in the bunker when it was clear the Allieds would treat them favorably. Not him, to be certain. Not his wife, either, The children, yes.

  • darth frosty
  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    Y'no even played straight this is a fugged up scenario.

    abraham and isaac

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    I would suggest that the thing to take away from the story is precisely that human sacrifice is not how YHWH expects things to work. That is, within the context of the time and place, one might expect that the god you follow would expect sacrifice of humans from time to time. There are plenty of narratives that end with the boy being slain -- we would have heard this one before, if you will. So Abraham, who lived within his own time, ultimately met this command, considering it to be the sort of unpleasant thing that sometimes gods demand.

    It's a shocking story, of course, but it is shocking to us mostly because we are so far removed from explicit human sacrifice. I suggest that, were you alive at the time, the shock would be that Abraham's god actually backed off the command to sacrifice. That ain't how the story was supposed to go.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    The entire OT is myth taken from older myths to tell a deeper truth.... there are a million and one interpretations for what this story means and none of them are literal because Abraham was nothing more than Brahma with his name rearranged....

    Greek Myths Related to the Tales of Abraham, Isaas, Moses and the Promised Land

    http://vridar.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/argonautica-and-bible/

    Was Abraham from India?

    http://www.jewsmuse.com/2009/06/was-abraham-indian.html

    Abraham and Brahma: Are they One?

    http://glasso.proweblog.com/archives/2008/12/19/11/

  • Glander
    Glander

    Isn't the real point here that the Abraham/Isaac tableau is the germaine foreshadow of CHRISTianity and it's foundation on the actual bloody sacrifice of God's son? Since God could have stopped the crucifixion as he did with Abraham, isn't he the real weilder of the "knife"? Not the Romans or the Jews.

    It is all so obvious that Christianity is just another Baskin-Robbins flavor of mankinds long history of bloody, simpleton concepts (religions) of a "God". It is all about rejecting the concept of actually dying with nothing beyond.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Two things:

    1) God loved the world so much he was willing to sacrifice is his only-begotten son to save the world. So what Abraham did to Isaac counterparts what Jehovah did to Jesus Christ at one point. If anything, it underscores the enormity of the price paid to save YOU/US.

    2) But Satan, the great propagandist and legalistic mind, finds hypocrisy in the way Jehovah handled things. Thus inspiring the death of babies relates to precisely how Jehovah was able to get rid of Satan. That is, basically Satan had made himself/herself a huge pain in the ass up in heaven, but there was no SIN in heaven, and angels didn't naturally die though they were mortal, so the universe was going to have to deal with Satan basically forever. So God basically decided to exercise his right to limit the lifespan of any of his creatures. Just as he limites the lifespan of animals or plants, he would limit the lifespan of the angels across the board. But he couldn't discriminate in this manner, he'd have to kill everyone. That is, he would have to kill all the angels, including his only-begotten favorite son, Michael/Jesus.

    From Satan's perspective, this was like God causing all his children to "pass through the fire" as it were, and in Satan's mind, that was similar to or no different than the horror of parents causing their beloved children to pass through the fire in order to please God.

    But, also, similar to the case with Isaac, those children, out of love for God, were willing to do that. Thus what happened up in heaven is at one point God asked of the loyal angels would they be willing to die for a short period of time, under the right to limit lifespan rule, if it would get rid of Satan? Of course, they were willing to do that, whether they came back or not, since Satan was disturbing everything in heaven. BUT, of course, there is this caveat about everybody being forced to die at least once. That caveat was, that while God had the right to limit the lifespan of all creatures, including the angels, he also had the right to resurrect angels or anything else for that matter, back to life. Only thing is, while the death sentencing was generalized and applied to all without discrimination, the resurrection would be for only those whom God wanted to extend eternal life to.

    So in other words, God saw the benefit of getting rid of Satan by throwing out the baby with the bath water, but only because he knew he could retrieve the baby later.

    So basically, you could say God approached Satan one day and said, "Satan? Guess what, you bitch! I've come up with a novice legal concept. What do you think about it? I'm God, the creator and I can give and take life. That's my right. Life is a gift. I've decided to limit the life of angels and so I'm going to require all the angels to die (i.e. "pass through the fire"). Every last one, even your brother and husband Jesus Christ/Michael."

    Satan probably said, "Well, that's your legal right if you want to do that. I think it is going to give you a reputation of being cruel and evil."

    God then likely replied: "Well, I'll deal with that, but its worth it to get rid of you once and for all. Because guess what? I'm going bring back all my favorite angels and grant them eternal life, and guess who I'm not going to be bringing back? !!"

    PERFECT SOLUTION: God gets rid of Satan, the troublemaking Nazi, and shuts Satan up legally because he does so within his legal right.

    So on the one hand, yes, Satan is mocking God becuase God, indeed, causes all his children to pass through the fire to prove their loyalty to him or not. But God can bring one back to life again since it is he that is giving life in the first place. Satan emphasizes the horror of the death of a chld, but ignores that life is a gift in the first place and God has the ability to give that gift whenever he wants.

    So when we talk about Abraham offering up Isaac, some of the satirical cartoons and pundits of what this really was are not accurate. That is, that yes, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son and Isaac was willing to be sacrificed if God willed it, but both of them knew God could easily give them their life back again. They were willing to demonstrate they trusted God. So even if Isaac died that day and Abraham was able to prove his loyalty, they had eternal life to think about. Because if they disobeyed, they would show they were unworthy of eternal life. They both knew they would both eventually die in the normal process of things; so they were focussed on putting more value on God's promise of eternal life after this short, sometimes painful life.

    Now, for Christians, God is quite consistent. We are all told we must love God more than OURSELVES and more than our parents or children. So yes, God requires us to surrender our souls in order to gain our souls back. But if we try to hold onto our souls, that is, this limited and short imperfect life, to live in opposition to God for a few temporary pleasures, then we will lose our soul, that is, our chance at eternal life.

    Now at the end of the day, self sacrifice is a very high standard, but at the end of the day, it is worth it! For one, you get a world with no more Satan. Two, you get to come back and enjoy eternal life.

    But, ultimately, the bottom line is, all of us are willing to die for someone we love, are we not? Dont' parents put themselves in harm's way to save a child? Don't soldiers go to war for a cause designated by their country?

    So this is no different. Except some, perhaps inspired by Satan, want to characterize this as love for blood or gore on God's part rather than the true legal and moral issues involved. You know, like one cartoon posted here that suggests God was just bored and wanted to entertain himself. Well, that's not quite it, is it?

    By contrast, this extreme measure was done out of LOVE for mankind and children. So when people burned their children up in the fire, it was a HORROR to Jehovah. Because he's not this bloodthirsty god of violence that Satan cuases his followers to focus on.

    But I'm biased, so I won't make a moral judgment here. But I will plead the legal case which shuts Satan up. That is:

    DOES THE CREATOR HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO LIMIT THE LIFESPAN OF HIS CREATURES?

    Of course, that answer is: YES

    The other question is was it worth it? All in heaven agree it was, if God could get rid of Satan legally and morally. Which he can and did. Some might disagree but that's the way it happened.

    I'll just reflect on a recent movie which I think demonstrates Satanic thinking versus the true issue. The movie is "127 Hours." This movie was based on a true story of how a hiker up in the mountains got pinned down by a bolder which fell on his arm. He couldn't get free and finally decided, in order to save his life, he'd have to cut himself free and lose his arm! That explains precisely the situation Jehovah might see himself in. Satan was the bolder that was pinning him and the rest of creation down. So was he going to die a slow death because of that? Or was life itself too precious. Was it worth sacrificing an arm in order for the rest of the body to be free? Of course!

    In fact, there are Bible verses that represent precisely that? That is, if your eye offended you, wouldn't you pluck it out to save the rest of the body and preserve life? Of course! If your hand offended you, wouldn't you cut it off? Of course. So this man pinned down by this bolder quickly came to the same conclusion. He would rather lose his hand and arm rather than lose his life and the rest of the body!

    Now the difference with Satanic propaganda is he emphasizes the pain and horror of losing a hand and arm but ignores the fact that preserving that hand and arm would mean eventual death of the entire body. So its handwaving. It's like those animal rights groups that decide to spray paint women wearing luxurious fur coats but who meet first at McDonald's for a few burgers before they go out on thier animal rights campaigns. That is, they eat beef and wear leather shoes but think of how horrible it is to kill cute and cuddly animals to be used for fur coats. It's a hypocrisy (aside from the inhumane ways animals are actually killed). I mean, what's the difference between a chicken and a mink? Both make good pets, I think, right? We all want to save the baby seals while gobbling down some KFC!

    Which is one other thing most people don't realize. That is, that Abraham and Isaac did go to KFC after this to cash in on a coupon for a free 3-piece meal with a drink if they got off that mountain alive. (teheehee)

    I love this. PEOPLE need to get their minds in gear and think about all these things. Regardless of what you finally decide. There will always be two sides to any issue. In this case, whether God commanded Isaac to be killed because he was bored or bloodthirsty versus a legitimate symbolic reason is the issue. God did not order this because he loved killing children as Satan and some ignorants would have us to believe. So I'm good.

    Good topic!

    LS

  • Glander
    Glander

    Good grief! Just read Larsinger's above post again, if you can. Legally and morally kick Satan out of Heaven?

    Isaac was bound before the almost murder. Jesus was nailed to a cross to be murdered. No volunteers in the scenarios. It goes on and on. Utter ignorance. Great example of the mental gymnastics and suspension of reason that is required to embrace life after death cults.

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