Everyone,
Thank you all for the replies and advice.
For those who asked, the girls are approx 13 and 15.
Both girls go with their mother to the meetings, and the younger stands up and comments... I don't know about the older one, from what I hear, while she is getting into the teachings, she is too shy to stand up in front of that many people.
I know that the younger one is an unbaptised publisher, and that they all have/ are organising blood cards.
I am about a quarter of the way through Crisis of Conscience.
What would you guys suggest is the next most relevant book to read, Captives of a Concept or Combatting Mind Control?
New here
by Tuber 98 Replies latest jw friends
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Tuber
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Black Sheep
You could gift her and the kids a copy of this.
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Cameron_Don
Tuber,
I would recommend "Captives of a Concept." It focuses on the organization's most important teaching - "the Society is God's organization" - which is based on their interpretation of the most important Scripture in their theology - Matthew 24:45-57
Don
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Tuber
Ok Don, will read it once I finish with Crisis of Conscience.
Religion has been mankinds biggest problem world wide throughout history. Jesus said to love God and one another even your enemies not kill, maim and persecute. [ Mathew 22:37&38]
I replied:
I'm confused...
You say religion is mankinds biggest problem... but in the same breath you are quoting from (paraphrasing) one of the most famous religous texts of all time?
This was on her wall, but for whatever reason she chose to inbox me instead, and sent me this:Correct, in the past Christendom would quote Bible text and then kill people any way. It is what the Bible describes as "Babylon the Great' the empire of false religion.Mathew24;5... for many will come on the basis of my name,saying,'I am the Christ,"and mislead many. Babylon the Great in the Bible is described as a woman who misleads all the nations by means of her' spiritistic practice' [Rev18;23] The Bible calls Babylon the Great 'a dwelling place of demons' in Rev18;2 and Deuteronomy 18;10-12. Babylon the Great has a deep hatred for true religion that she violently persecutes and even murders the witnesses of Jesus. Rev17;6 says 'and I saw the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.'
Both Kings and merchants are described as looking at Babylon the Great from a distance in the Bible at the time of her destruction. Rev 18;3,9,10,15-17. It is reasonable to assume that Babylon the Great is not a political or a commercial empire, but a religious one.
While she has yet to outright say to me she is a JW, her use of the terms, and what I from my family prove it.
But since I am still operating under the cover of not knowing, what should I do?
Would it be worth talking with her about those bible passages, and if so, does anyone have some insight on them an atheist wouldn't?
Or should I just ask "well then, what is the true religion?
It kind of shocked me that I was given what seems to be such a prepackaged, cookie cut argument. -
Cameron_Don
Tuber.
I mistakenly referred you to Matthew 24:45-57. That should have been Matthew 24:45-47.
Don
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partydelights
Dear Tuber,
There are many great advices before me. I like to contribute my $0.02.
1) I appear to me you're a reader and a knowledgeable person. You have already known both sides of the WT saga and are now ready to "infiltrate" WT. Personally, I think the best way is to become a "Bible Study".
The "wall" will collapse when you're their Bible Study. They will start the love bombing with you and do all things cult does, according to what you read in the recommended books.
You should not rush into pushing down their teachings. Let them become comfortable with you and "forgot" you're an atheist. Then, you bring out questions from their older publications.
One of the good books you may like to bring out is "You can live forever in Paradise on Earth". Those who study with JW in the 1980s will have this book. Another more "recent" book is the "Knowledge that leads to Everlasting Life". These books contain the teachings of "generation" as 70 or 80 years from 1914. They also have s few "subliminal images" (you may start from http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/3subliminalimages.html)
Generally speaking, the complete super-structure of WT doctrine rests on the year 1914. If it can be proven as false, then 1919 (anointed freed) is false, 1935 (Great Crowd teaching) is false, etc. (see their Revelation Climate book).
Caution
You need a lot of discretion to bring up those doctrines. WT is trying to bury this past. 1914 doctrine is fading away. Simply putting, the importance of it is no longer stressed and is less used in recent publications. Hence, many will believe in Anointed without linking to 1919, the Great Crowd without 1935, ... etc and 1914 will eventually lost in significant in the next 5 years (I think).
Hence, bringing up this date may result in Elders querying your motives and start to probe you for its origin. Once you got "expose" for visiting sites like this one, you'll say good bye to your efforts and your family. So please be careful.
Final Words
While I recommend you to become their "Bible Study", please do not get baptize. They cannot disfellowship you if you're not baptized and hence cannot officially shun you.
Also, be careful of their teachings. WT is very "convincing" in its words. It takes a person with logic to notice its teachings are based on "circular reasoning", "begging the question", and other fallacies. So if you have a doubt during your study, raise them here. Many will be able to help you see the truth behind "the truth".
Finally, should I say, "God bless your effort" or "Good luck with your venture" to you? Either case, take care.
PD
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Tuber
I am trying to come at it from an "ignorant and willing to learn" angle, but without suddenly appearing to be too interested, since she knows about my atheism, and suddenly taking a huge interest in it may put up red flags.
*I replied to her:
That's the first time I've heard this interpretation of revelation and the end times (I'm going to call it and treat it as an interpretation of revelation since you are quoting revelation more than any other book, and revelation deals primarily with the end times, let me know if it's something else that you're getting at, I may be missing the point).
I'll read the verses you quoted (and the ones surrounding them), using a few different translations of the bible.
*Then slightly later:
I am looking through the quotes in the order they appear in the bible.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14, ASV
When thou art come into the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with Jehovah thy God. For these nations, that thou shalt dispossess, hearken unto them that practise augury, and unto diviners; but as for thee, Jehovah thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
Deuteronomy, 18:9-14, NIV
When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.
I couldn't find a reference to Babylon The Great anywhere in Deuteronomy 18?
Am I missing something?
So how am I doing guys, am I coming across as too confrontational? Also, I think she must have made a mistake with the above bible quote, will have to wait and see which verse she actually meant.
@Party
Thanks for some good advice, do you have any good resources relating to 1914? I'm talking about stuff that is VERY difficult to argue against. It is going to take me a while to stumble across such info in my reading, since I have 3 books to get through, and this is while working and studying. If you could give me a link or two, I'd really appreciate it. What do you think of my back and forth with her? I'm trying to show a willingness to look at the bible, hopefully that will lure her in somewhat.
Also, say whichever you like. While I'm not a big fan of the phrase "god bless", I know you're saying it with the best intentions, and really, that's what matters. -
jwfacts
I am trying to come at it from an "ignorant and willing to learn" angle, but without suddenly appearing to be too interested, since she knows about my atheism, and suddenly taking a huge interest in it may put up red flags.
Good idea. You can start with the Socratic method, so as not to raise too much suspicion. However, at some stage you will need to be more forceful than that it you are going to have any affect. If after a few chats you tell her you found the discussions interesting and did some research, that would not come across as unusual. As that stage you can say you read Crisis of Conscience and highly recommend it.
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Curtains
Tuber as an atheist you have a rich field to work from to involve your step mother in developing critical thinking skills. It is possible to take her on an interesting journey without appearing to be specifically critiquing Jehovahs witnesses per se.
For example, the Revelation verses are using a tried and tested device to set up oppositions between true and false, good and bad. This device is the portrayal of the other as luxury loving, effeminate (the woman), drunken, lying, barbarian (babylonian) and full of excesses to delineate oneself as pious and dutiful in the service of TRUTH.
Aeschylus' Persians is a good example of this. In this play the personas of the Persian Queen and Persians themselves including Xerxes are very similar to the woman, Babylon the great in Revelation.
When I use these methods I tend not to have goals in mind leaving it up to the person to make discoveries for themselves. It can be quite stimulating resulting in a journey of one's own.
btw I really like the way you are tackling your situation, questioning how deuteronomy fits with Revelation. As humans we love neatly fitting stories and are especially susceptible to being taught by this means. But Deuteronomy and Revelation do not fit neatly together as Jehovahs witnesses suggest.
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rebel8
Clearly she is telling you what convinces her what to believe--the bible. That's what you need to convince her of anything. Here are some suggestions.
Correct, in the past Christendom would quote Bible text and then kill people any way. It is what the Bible describes as "Babylon the Great' the empire of false religion.Mathew24;5... for many will come on the basis of my name,saying,'I am the Christ,"and mislead many. Babylon the Great in the Bible is described as a woman who misleads all the nations by means of her' spiritistic practice' [Rev18;23]
Ask her to describe what "spiritistic practice is". Wait for her to explain.
Then ask if a religion using a bible translated by a spiritist would be a false religion or not. Wait for her to reply, let her hang herself here.
Then point out jw literature quotes that clearly state the New World Translation was partially done by a spiritist. She will respond in one of the following ways, and here are the potential responses:
- That isn't true. "Oh really? Please show me a scan of the jw book I referenced that does not state it was done by this spiritist."
- But I can't find that book. "Oh really? The bible is older than that but why do the words of Jehovah only x# years old get hidden away? Why does the Society not make this publication available?"
- Oh, well the Society made a mistake. We keep getting closer to god, new light. "Jehovah clearly stated in the bible that spiritism involvement was a mark of false religion. It was one of the most important things in the bible. Can't we trust the bible? Plus, why did the Society's literature keep quoting him until the 1980s if it was teachings from demons? And why does the Society still use and publish that bible that bases some of its most fundamental understandings from a version demons helped translate?"
- Silence. (No answer for that one.)
