Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth 77 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Secondly..

    Fisherman said:
    Regarding the document that you posted, since the authorities have the power to administer a BT with or without the document anyway, the parent is not...tacitly consenting to BT by signing it because the authorities do not need any consent or signature from the parent to administer blood to a minor they deem needs it.

    Many governments or 'authorities' have (and have had many times in the past) the power and authority to do whatever they want to do to JW's, without consent. Many JW's have died due to opposing the authority and power of a government..

    As a less dramatic recent example, Ashya King was made a ward of court, so his parents (and good for them, may I add, it all turned out well..) 'kidnapped' him and fled the country, running from the authorities to get their son the treatment they wanted. I am not suggesting for a minute that all parents should do this, it is merely an example of not consenting to authority.

    My point?
    Many faithful Jehovah's Witness will defy the law to get the treatment they want for their child, or even die (or let their children die in some cases) in order to stay loyal to Jehovah, in line with their deeply held religious convictions. They would rather die than agree to anything that would displease their God.

    One example of this being that women were taught by the Watchtower that anything short of fighting and resisting being raped (even to the point of death) was a sin.

    Some would view even signing a document indicating acceptance that the hospital can (from the point of view of a JW parent who believes that taking in blood, in any situation, is immoral and loathsome in God's eyes)
    violate the body of their child and make them 'unclean' would be a compromise of their faith.

    Would a JW woman sign a form that a non-JW rapist handed to her ( just for the sake of example, in relation to doctors being nonJW and the Watchtowers position that women should be willing to fight rapists to the death)
    , stating that
    'she accepts that he will violate her, she will not fight him every step of the way, and she acknowleges that she does not have the power to prevent him from forcibly violating her'?

    If she did, that would not in itself be indicating tacit consent obviously, because he has the power to do whatever he wants to, and the outcome will be the same anyway.
    But that hypothetical JW woman would have been disfellowshipped, if such a form were to have been presented at her judicial..

    Not because of any consent issues, but because she accepted the man forcing her to break God's will, did not resist it happening even to the point of death, and signed something to show that.

    It all smells of double-standards to me, to avoid negative media coverage and to improve their dealings with, and reputation with, the medical community.
    It's just 'less messy and ugly' this way, as the news article noted.
    (I'm not going to explicitly connect the dots here between the words 'messy and ugly' and the Watchtowers fight-rapists-to-the-death teaching, or being told to defy authorities even if it costs your life, but you know what I mean...).

    Besides all of that, why would any JW parent sign something that acknowledges that the authorities can take their child and force them to break God's command?
    I'd tell them where to stick the form if someone asked me to sign something that acknowledged their power to 'violate' my child if they decide to.

    Unless the parent privately DID NOT view having a blood transfusion as being against Jehovah's will..
    (after all, when human blood is transfused, the blood is not eaten.)

    Consider this point from the news article:
    "All the ethicists stress, as well, that some Jehovah’s Witnesses do not agree with the blood ban, but are anxious that their green light to transfusion be kept confidential.
    “Some families are really more concerned about other Jehovah’s Witnesses finding out they consented to the blood transfusion,” said Ms. Seller."
    www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/20/without-fanfare-jehovahs-witnesses-quietly-soften-position-on-blood-transfusions
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Not because of any consent issues.....acknowledges that the authorities can...acknowledged their power

    You have changed your horse in mid race. LOL. First, you advertize that the WT is secretly consenting to blood transfusions, but now you concede that they are not and you say that it is an acknowledgement and not an authorization..

    I have nothing more to say to you.

  • millie210
    millie210

    I am following the discussion between Fisherman and Defender of Truth.

    Fisherman you stated something incorrectly in one of your posts having to do with the consent process but it was corrected by Defender of Truth so I wont re- state it.

    As for your use of ellipses to make your point, I found this interesting:

    "...this is used to highlight sarcasm or make the reader think about the last points..."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

    If you want people who are reading this thread to continue to read your posts with respect, (which I would like to do) then why not just keep stating your truth? Why cherry pick the other posters statement to make it slant?

    Surely you can do just fine without that? Assuming you are on the side of what is factual?



  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    You have changed your horse in mid race. LOL. First, you advertize that the WT is secretly consenting to blood transfusions, but now you concede that they are not and you say that it is an acknowledgement and not an authorization..

    Fisherman, I don't understand your reply. I only posted the article, trying to find out what it was all about. Where did I say that the Watchtower is consenting to anyone having blood transfusions? You don't seem to have read my post carefully enough to grasp the point.

    The news article made it clear that this is not a consent form, and that no authorization is required from the parent.
    The form states that JW beliefs do not allow for a blood transfusion.
    You seem to be mixing up two seperate things.

    I was talking mainly about the JW judicial consequences (or lack thereof) after the event, especially considering the Watchtower's stance on rape. The rest you can discuss with Marvin.

    The parent in question obviously does not want their child to be in a life-or-death situation.
    You may presume that the average JW would not want the child to have a blood transfusion even if their life is in danger, because of their religious belief that God would prefer that a life be lost rather than for someone to take in blood..
    A victim does not want to be raped.


    Let me try to be clearer, then:
    So why would they not fight to take the child away from the hospital that is going to administer the blood transfusion, if taking in blood is so important to Jehovah?

    Why would they acknowledge a transfusion may happen whilst at the hospital, then let a transfusion happen if, as the Watchtower would assume (according to the parents personal beliefs), they would rather die or fight to the death or be imprisoned than take in a transfusion themselves? Because they had no choice? Neither did the rape victim. They still had to resist, even to the point of death.

    The fact that parents are signing these forms, and then letting the children be given a transfusion without putting up a fight, as it were, indicates to me that the parents either view submission to the authorities as more important than what God wants, or they do not believe that God wants a child to die rather than take in blood.
    It's just my thoughts on how all of this relates to the after-effect of being raped and disfellowshipped for not putting up enough of a fight, the seeming injustice of it, and you haven't even responded, just done a lazy cut out of my post.

    To reiterate: With this document, parents can allow someone to force their child, to break God's Law by taking in blood (as the Watchtowers claims), and then have no judicial commitee or anything, because they had a signed document from the HLC.

    The hospital would always bear the blame, because the parents in a way had no choice, except for breaking the law and running away with the child, possibly endangering the childs life. But since when has endangering a life stopped JW's from obeying God's Law?). In the case of a rapist violating someone, the victim has at times taken the blame. Despite clearly having no choice, not even to physically flee.

    Women (and men) have been taught by the Watchtower for decades that they should risk death, when faced with being raped, rather than just accept it and acknowledge that the rapist can do what they want. They were to fight to the bitter end.
    Obedience to God was viewed as more important than the victims safety or life (even their family's safety depending on the situation).

    There is no question that the victim did not consent to being raped.
    But if they were not seen to have put up enough of a fight, they could be disfellowshipped or at least told that they needed to repent.. merely for acknowledging that the rapist had power over him/her and they could do nothing about it, so they did not try to resist.
    The victim did not consent. They could not stop it. So they acknowledged it was going to happen and let it happen. What is the difference between that and this situation with parents signing acknowledgement forms with the help of the HLC (usually elders, I believe.)

    Parents could sign one of these forms, acknowledging that their child may be 'violated' by a blood transfusion. Then they let it happen and don't have to face a judicial committee.
    Win-win. Good for them. Seems like a double standard for the HLC people to be allowed to work on these forms and arrange them with hospitals. What happened to the old fight-Satan's-system-to-the-death mentality?...

    And the fact that these have been used by various hospitals indicates that this has happened quite a number of times.

    It seems to be a compromise, so that things would not have to get 'ugly and messy' for the JW's, and so the child would receive the blood that the hospital wanted to force on them against the parents wishes.
    Some JW's in the past would have fled the country, or fought to the death, rather than break God's Law.

    That is when I suggested that many JW parents who use this may be relieved that their child will not have to lose their life, because they do not privately hold the belief that it is better to die than to take blood into the body.

    I don't know whether the Watchtower consented to all this or not, discuss that with Marvin, it's his article.. They did allow the HLC to make these arrangements though, or are you suggesting that only certain elders and the parents knew of it?

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    I know it's technically off-topic, but I just need to post this, as a reference for any who didn't know what I meant by
    rape being viewed as fornication (and thus potential grounds for disfellowshipping),
    if someone doesn't resist.
    (There are stories and examples throughout, as well as all the quotes on the first page.)

    www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/43055/disfellowshipped-being-raped?page=1

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    And can someone please tell me if they can follow the point I'm trying to make..? I don't mind if you say 'no, what a load of rubbish'. But please explain why. OK, I'm done.
  • millie210
    millie210

    You are making your point and providing links.

    You cant do more than that.

    Fisherman started to do what people do in a desperate situation and that is to cobble your post using the quote feature.

    ~

    So back on topic, the Society is trying to make some wiggle room for itself. No one is supposed to notice. When enough time passes people are supposed to just assume "it has always been this way".

    Who will contradict them? The older ones who remember how it really was? The dead Witnesses who died trying to be faithful in their stand on blood?

    My biggest fear is that this whole issue is going to quietly go away.

    (Kind of like Fisherman did)

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    It has not been established on this thread that the posted "agreement" is genuine and used by JW, but assuming that it is: You seem to be implying that the WT is derivatively consenting BT if a JW executes such related document. They are not. You also seem to be implying (again as you have done in the past involving C Plasma,) that the WTS is covert by not advertizing to the extent of your satisfaction WTS documents that you have decided that should be, because you think 'that the WT knows that they are contradicting their otherwise formal position on blood,' and that is why it seems to you that the WT is being secretive.
    Fisherman,


    Whether the document at issue is authentic or fake is as easy as checking with the indicated source, which is not me. Within "this thread" is a link to my blog article that first brought this document to public attention. The source is cited if you care to check. I performed due diligence in obtaining a copy of this document directly from its source. I then shared it for public review. If this subject is important to you then you'll bother yourself to contact the same source. Everything you need to do this is referenced in my blog article. (See: Blood transfusion: Letter of Understanding ) If, on the other hand, you don't want to check with sources then there is little anyone can do to authenticate this document for you.


    Nonetheless, my blog article does offer alternate sources that either refer to the same document (i.e., letter of understanding for use in cases of JWs and blood issues) or to an agreement that is essentially the same thing. (See references 3 and 6 in Blood transfusion: Letter of Understanding) In each of these instances Watchtower or its representatives are involved as a facilitator in the process.


    When it comes to what this document (i.e., letter of understanding for use in cases of JWs and blood issues) represents in terms of contradicting Watchtower's formal position, my blog article is not silent and I see you avoid this. If you are interested in what has been actually said on this point I suggest you try reading. Look at my article's sub-section titled "What's changed". I didn't leave anything for implication. What I wanted to provide as a take-away for readers I bothered to put in writing. This change in Watchtower's formal position on blood for the circumstance at issue is as my blog article says. Oh, and to this day Watchtower has yet to make this change known to the rank-and-file JW community, though it bothered to make its policy of 1992 very clear. We can characterize this however we want but facts of the matter don't change. The letter of understanding document/agreement demonstrates a change in Watchtower's position and it's a change Watchtower has yet to publicize.



    I am sure that you are very well aware of this, but it seems to me, that you nonetheless with your sophistry publicly misrepresent the intentions of the WT in the above related matter, and you also publicly misrepresent the purpose of such document that you have posted, that you claim is used by JW.
    I've shared documented facts of this matter. Apparently that bothers you. So what?
  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    So back on topic, the Society is trying to make some wiggle room for itself.

    I think the whole reason for the change demonstrated in the letter of understanding agreement is the result of one thing: failure to have its way regarding JW minors (which is to let them die rather than attempt prevention of premature death by transfusion of blood) and lots of very negative media and legislative attention garnered for trying to have its way regarding JW minors and blood transfusion.

    To my knowledge the first agreement of this sort reached involved the case cited in my blog article and recorded in Globe and Mail, May 5, 2005, Forced return to Vancouver angers girl, By Jane Armstrong. This was a very high profile incident and the agreement reached to treat the minor in the US (which Watchtower representatives were completely familiar with and supportive of) is essentially the same as found in the letter of understanding. Oh, and one more thing about that particular agreement, it was essentially the same thing Canadian medical providers were seeking but Watchtower at that time was unwilling to relent to in full public view. It was only a fluke that critical elements of this agreement were made public and that only as a casual remark from a medical facility staff member quoted in the article by Jane Armstrong.

  • millie210
    millie210

    I was reading about the case you mentioned above from the newspaper article (I googled it) and also from your blog. In your blog comments I noticed a commenter referred to an elders only form S-55-E dating from 9/2010.

    Do you happen to know where I could read that letter or what the gist of it is?

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