Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth 77 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Mavin Shlimer, I think that you know that I do not want to waste any more time posting that I disagree with your conclusions about the LOU posted on this thread. It seems to me, that in your reference 3 of your blog, you would have quoted from the article, the part that most supports your conclusions, but I have concluded, that what you posted from the article, does not document or even support what you have asserted about the LOU. I know for a fact that I will keep my forty dollars.

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/15265161.2012.719263

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    "In fact, Defender of Truth having all of your pointed references too, claims that he does not know either."

    Maybe because I misunderstood your vaguely worded questions..

    1. Do you know for a fact that Watchtower drafted any part of the Letter of Understanding posted on this thread?

    2. Do you know for a fact that Watchtower (appointees) asks for the LOU posted on this thread in connection with medical treatment?

    First question was ridiculous, since when has it been claimed that the Watchtower society drafted this letter?

    Second question, I thought you meant do the Hlc request this letter from the Watchtower, which has not been stated anywhere as far as I have seen.

    If in the first question you meant Watchtower appointed men, my reply would be yes.

    If in the second question you meant do they ask the hospital whether the lou is in place, my reply is yes. Marvin has cleared it up now, it seems.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    I think that you shouldn't have to decide what people should know. Didn't I tell you that before in one of my posts? In fact, Defender of Truth having all of your pointed references too, claims that he does not know either.

    I haven't decided what you know. I have decided what you should know based on evidence put before you. Perhaps you can't read, or perhaps you don't want to. But evidence has been put before you that you ignore for reasons unstated.

    5 days ago in this very discussion you were pointed to source material documenting that the instrument at issue is known by Watchtower appointees and is asked for by those appointees for sake of JW parents having the opportunity to sign it. Ether you're not paying attention when this was pointed out, or else you're not reading.

    Neither is the Letter of Understanding posted on this thread a terms of service document because you proclaim that it is.

    A document that presents conditions and services that will be rendered that also documents acknowledgement of those conditions and services is commonly understood by layfolk and lawyers as a terms of service document. Of course you are free to characterize it however you want. The instrument at issue outlines conditions and services and both parties acknowledge these as operating foundations.

    I have concluded from reading your posts that you know what a fact is.

    Excellent!

    What I have concluded after reading the article you referenced is that the Court ordered a blood transfusion. I also concluded that the parents did not want their child to receive a blood transfusion. I also concluded that this article does not support your conclusion about the LOU posted on this thread.

    You're free to think as you will, which is how it should be. But your conclusion avoids the point because it ignores the information in that media report that is relevant to this discussion. This discussion is about a letter of understanding document where JW parents in writing acknowledge in advance that a medical facility may transfuse blood to their child if in the opinion of the medical staff this is necessary to protect life and/or health of the child. This is, in effect, exactly what the letter of understanding does.

    Mavin Shlimer, I think that you know that I do not want to waste any more time posting that I disagree with your conclusions about the LOU posted on this thread. It seems to me, that in your reference 3 of your blog, you would have quoted from the article, the part that most supports your conclusions, but I have concluded, that what you posted from the article, does not document or even support what you have asserted about the LOU. I know for a fact that I will keep my forty dollars.

    Whether you agree or disagree with me is of no importance to anyone here other than you.

    If you want to learn more about the referenced material you need not spend 40 bucks. You can go to a nearby public library, which is where I found and read the article along with a great many others on this and other topics. No one can make a horse drink.

    An additional excerpt from Frolic et al:

    "The need for a policy to guide staff when Jehovah’s Witness (JW) parents of pediatric patients refuse to consent for medically necessary blood products emerged from an ethics case consultation. The JW parents involved in the case were told by hospital staff that that the local child protection services (CPS) would be contacted to seek a temporary judicial apprehension order to ensure that their child received necessary treatment if they persisted in their refusal to consent to blood transfusion; this was the hospital’s usual practice at the time. The JW Hospital Liaison Committee members supporting this couple inquired whether an option existed for them to sign a letter of understanding (LOU) indicating their acknowledgment that their child will receive necessary transfusions, without requiring either their explicit consent or CPS involvement to temporarily apprehend the child. This option did not exist at HHS, but did exist at a neighboring hospital. After this case, the local JW Hospital Liaison Committee encouraged HHS to develop a similar policy and LOU; this idea was supported by the HHS administration and an initial draft was created by hospital legal counsel. The goal of the policy was to promote collaborative relationships between JW parents and health care providers, and to clarify the process for obtaining consent for blood products with pediatric patients in light of the relevant recent Supreme Court decision in AC v Manitoba (2009)."

    The article goes on to talk rather extensively about the development process, which of course included discussion with Watchtower appointed hospital liaison committee representatives.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    Thanks very much for your time and effort, Marvin. That quote helps a great deal. ^^liked
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    I have decided what you should know based on evidence put before you. Perhaps you can't read, or perhaps you don't want to. But evidence has been put before you that you ignore for reasons unstated. 5 days ago in this very discussion you were pointed to source material documenting that the instrument at issue is known by Watchtower appointees and is asked for by those appointees for sake of JW parents having the opportunity to sign it. Ether you're not paying attention when this was pointed out, or else you're not reading.

    Again, you claim, that you should get to decide what someone should know, based on what you conclude a document says, (you say the same thing about the LOU posted on this thread.) What you seem to be saying, is that people should conclude what you tell them to conclude from what they read, and such conclusion means that their conclusion is a fact.That is a fallacy.


    Illustration: A talking horse versus a document:

    Marvin proclaims to Mavin that Mr. Ed is the owner of his house. Marvin points to a certified copy of the deed to Mr. Ed's house, to proves that Mr Ed is the owner of his house. Mavin asks Marvin: "Marvin, Do you know for a fact that Mr. Ed is the owner of his house?" Marvin's response to Mavin is: "You should know this by now!" and points to the deed (with other remarks) and tells Mavin that he cannot read because Mavin does not conclude that Mr. Ed is the owner of his house. Marvin also diverts attention from Mavin's question..... [In this particular case, anyone reading the certified copy of the deed to Mr. Ed's house, would erroneously conclude, that because the instrument is certified, and because an authority authored the document, and because Mavin says that the document says that Mr. Ed is the owner of his house, that therefore, it is a fact that Mr. Ed is the owner of his house. That is what Marvin is telling Mavin to conclude(or know). But Mavin knows otherwise. As it turns out in this particular case, Mr Ed is not the owner of his house.]

    may transfuse blood to their child if in the opinion of the medical staff this is necessary to protect life and/or health of the child.

    The documents that you have presented show that the authorities will administer blood.

    Whether you agree or disagree with me is of no importance to anyone here other than you.

    If you want to learn more about the referenced material you need not spend 40 bucks. You can go to a nearby public library, which is where I found and read the article along with a great many others on this and other topics. No one can make a horse drink.

    A talking horse does not need to be led-it knows. All you've got is a non remarkable horse. No need for further investigation.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Fisherman,

    I don't know what your motive is, and really don't care. But your analysis of this discussion and assertions of fact is quite entertaining to read.

    The document at issue is an agreement. You don't seem to like this. I don't know why, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

    Fundamentals of the document at issue are known by Watchtower and those fundamentals represent a change in Watchtower policy compared to its 1992 position. You don't seem to like this either. I don't know why, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

    Executing the document at issue (or its equivalent) can make the difference of life and death for a child. This notion also seems to get under your skin. I don't know why, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

    In this discussion you've had evidence handed to you at every turn. What do you do? Ignore it of course, and then come up with strawman illustration to assert a fallacy of me. I don't know why you do things like this, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

    So, here's my question to you: Do you see any difference between fundamentals of the letter of understanding document compared with Watchtower's published 1992 policy? If so, what?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    what?

    Talking fundamentally, in terms of time, looking back at your posts, the only changes I see are in the drafting of your broadcast. No point for you to continue this discussion with me, all my posts say the same thing-As far as I know.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    Talking fundamentally, in terms of time, looking back at your posts, the only changes I see are in the drafting of your broadcast. No point for you to continue this discussion with me, all my posts say the same thing-As far as I know.

    That's about as perfect a non-answer as I've ever read.

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