I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses

by PenelopePaige 160 Replies latest jw friends

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    guess I mean, "sincere religion".

    Fair comment and it is true about JWs. Then again, that is true about the followers of many religions.

    Jwfacts why would believing in "one true religion" be a fundemental error? is your point based on the fact you personally think that there can be many true religions? or there can be no true religions? It is the bible that sets the parameter that the true religion must preach (word of mouth) "to the entire inhabited earth" are you saying that is impossible for any religion to do?

    Concerned JW - of course there is no one true religion. That is black and white thinking simply used to enslave people. In regards to your second question, of course I am saying that. There is no single religion with the ability to preach to the entire world, not even Catholics with one billion followers. JWs constantly show how completely deluded they are when they make comments that they have fulfilled this command. 3 Billion people have never, ever heard the term Watchtower or Jehovah's witness, and of those that have met a JW, few have any idea what the Watchtower teaching of "the good news of the kingdom is".

  • hubert
    hubert

    Penelope, the ONLY reason the J.W.'s seem to have
    the right answer is because the have "canned answers". I have a j.w. elders bible that has an addition to it called "Reasoning from the scriptures".

    All this is, is a bunch of canned answers to most obvious questions that a "worldly person" would ask a j.w., at their door. This doesn't mean they are "spirit directed".

    I'll give you an example..... P. 65....If a person (at the door) says...."Everyone has his own interpretation of the Bible". You might reply..."And, obviously, not all of them are right". Then, perhaps add...""Twisting scripture to fit our own ideas can result in lasting harm"...(and so on).

    And, yes, that last statement can result in lasting harm, and that's exactly what the Watchtower Society does....twist scriptures by using them out of context. See what I mean?

    Hubert

  • dm6
    dm6

    Penelope Paige. Please read my post - all of it.

    I studied with the Witnesses as you are, and i did for about a year. I even started bible readings in the hall.

    I never got to the status of unbaptized publisher though etc, because my questioning got more intense with them, and then they saw that as me "opposing it".

    I always beileved in Heaven and hell for ALL people too, and not this paradise earth nonesense. They pride themselves that they are supposed LOGICAL people and there is logic in their faith in order that it is true.

    Howwever there is NO logic whatsoever in this so calle dparadise earth, and just like you THAT was my problem too. The whole time i studied with them, i could never accept it, and if you beileve the bible, jesus Christ says all the time about storing earthly treasures in the heavens.

    Think about it, their religion is based on IF. What IF they didnt eat the fruit, then they would have lived! forever! LOL!!!

    Come on, it was Gods plan to show us, that given our free will we WILL sin. and we ALL will. Right to the very first people on earth adam and eve they sinned and went against God. Gods plan was exactly that,he knew we would sin and that is what we did. We die because of our sin (as the bible rightly says) and then there is heaven and hell for each of us.

    All i will say is, go with your GUT feeling, i did and it led me to the correct choice.

    Do you REALLY think GOD ALMIGHTY would have his full faith trust and leadership here on earth, run by 7 men in brooklyn that gets so much hatred and destroys so many lives, families etc.

    it is NOT right.

    God wants us to be happy and live happy lives, and aside from their false smiles and pretending their little suburban nightmare is alright, it is NOT. And they are NOT happy. true story.

    Go with your gut instinct. all we can do here is advise.

  • partydelights
    partydelights

    Dear PenelopePaige and Concerned JW,

    Frankly speaking, I do not want to criticize much about WT because I have come to accept it as a religion that is going to stay on this earth for a very long time, much like the Muslims, the Buddhists, etc.

    Firstly, I like to clarify that I read the Bible cover-to-cover 7 times in Prison, not 3 times. There is no need to sympathize me for my “neutrality stand”. I did not do it for WT. In fact I was a BS when I took up the stand. I did it for God. I did it because I want to tell let all know, this is the way I show love to them. Nothing to do with WT. In fact, I did not even know WT had so much control over JW. (Most BS does not know the relationships between WT and JW. In my mind then, WT was just the printing arm of JW . Of course, today, I know, JW is the distribution arm of WT .)

    Next, please know that I’m not the debating type. If you truly want to know what I want to tell about “Faithful and Discrete slave” and the Galatians as one of misquoted scripture to separate the anointed from the Great Crowd, please PM me. I don’t wish to bore my fellow friends here with doctrinal debates they so well acquainted. (I know Concerned JW, there are plenty of scriptures WT used – Revelation, Jesus parable of the sheepfold, etc, etc. And of course, if you buy that WT junk, the entire Isaiah spoke about them! Of course, the only person ever spoke of the Law and Prophets fulfilled upon is Jesus, and he is the Way, the Truth and the Life. This I believe. )

    It’s up to you to believe WT’s advertisement that we need WT guidance to know the Bible truth. As far as I understand, there are enough faithful worshippers of God before CT Russell the Manson. Don’t tell me all those before Russell are condemned and illiterate of the Bible. Let’s face it. Plenty of WT and Awake quotations (or mis-quotation) come from the Church fathers.

    I did not use my credentials of Bible reading to establish my knowledge of Bible truths. However, I dare say it’s the Holy Spirit that helps me (and many more before me as well as plenty in my lifetime) understand them. Read your Bible. If you want scriptures, PM me. As I mentioned, I’m not here to debate. I’m not here to ask any to trust me or follow what I say. I’m just stating the Truth in a nutshell and hence avoid lengthily scriptural quotations.

    Finally, I like you to know, my wife and I did not leave WT because of sin on our part. Rather, WT made a mistake that ruined our lives for 10 years . Although mistakes were at the court of WT, the only thing we got from the DO is “Sorry” during a recent private “shepherding visit”. It was a 15 years fight for the sake of Divine Justice and Righteousness. All we asked is to be reinstated as Pioneers and the answer was “not possible”. So we know. It’s not the name of Jehovah that is utmost importance to WT. It’s the name of WT . Hence we left.

    Regard Bible Study and understanding, Penelope, effort is needed on your part. Instead of setting aside 1 to 2 hours a week studying the 30 plus doctrines of WT (yes, evaluate carefully, it is possible to enumerate ALL the teachings of WT), use this time to read the Bible and research from the Internet or from Christian books. I know it’s a sad thing many in the Church are not well acquainted with the Bible. However, if you look into a neighborhood “Evangelical Church” like the Methodist, Anglican, etc, you may find more meaningful Bible studies.

    Remember: Because WT doctrines in limited to around 30 primary dogmas, it is possible to make those look like a “well satisfying spiritual food”. However, many over here can testify, that after 10 years, there’s really nothing much. The Church, however, do not constrain to just the few dogmas of WT. There are plenty of views from many angles for any scriptures. In fact, mathematically, there are possible billions of understandings from the complete Bible. With such, it does not really matter if you know it all. In fact it’s impossible. But if you can glean the truth that makes you a true servant of Christ, and enough principle to make you happy this lifetime, then I think you have benefit from the Bible.

    To conclude, I like to share a scripture with you, Penelope. I discussed it with my wife yesterday during our “Personal Bible Reading” session. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13

    “But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

    When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”

    Notice here, WT criticizes the Church speaking in “tongues”, made false “prophecies”, but today, I like to voice out, knowledge too comes in equal weightage as “tongues” and “prophecies”.

    Then my wife made a very good point: All those “knowledge” of WT, “tongue and Prophecies” of the Churches, aren’t they all “childish” according to the scripture? My answer was, indeed! Knowledge simply puff up, tongue if not use properly simply gives people ere feelings, prophecies when applied wrongly simply breaks another’s faith.

    But then, the last verse:

    “13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”

    Yes, it doesn’t matter whether WT is right is her knowledge or not. It doesn’t matter the tongue and prophecies benefits or not, God is not really interested in these. Rather, what God wanted from all His children are

    1) Faith in his Son Jesus (particularly his death and sacrifice)

    2) Hope in the future, that under His arrangement is going to be perfect and grand

    3) Love, yes, that all Christians (even mankind) should love one another and all should come to love Him as the true God and Creator.

    Aren’t such principles much more worthy of consideration, than running the path of a cult that destroys lifes?

    PD

    PS: You're now a BS, Penelop. So any doctrinal "objection" is OK. But once you becomes a baptized JW, you MUST accept that ONLY 144,000 goes to heaven. Otherwise, to "hell" you'll go, like most of us here...

    PPS: Sorry for the late reply. My side of the earth is GMT/UTC +8. So you might be sleeping when I'm awake, and vice versa.

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    charliko . . . I'm not sure what congregation you attended and for how long . . . ?

    . . . but Talesin's description, although consise, was entirley accurate. What is "officially taught" and what it transpires into among the JW community as a result, is not always obvious . . .

    What to wear. Not exactly. To dress respectfully, modestly and not casually, if you want to do what JW's perceive Jehovah as wanting.

    On one occasion my wife was counselled that here heels were too high and asked not to wear them to meetings. I was told if I continued to wear a sports jacket to the KH, my priveleges would be removed. I was similarly advised on seperate occasions about a suit that was "too scruffy" a tie that was "too bright", shoes that were "too pointy" and a shirt that was "too loud" . . . and I'm generally a conservative and tidy dresser.

    What to think (jehovah knows ALL your thoughts, and WILL judge you for them). Not really. They'll teach you, from the Bible, what God wants, and then it's your choice, and that's even if you accept the Bible and God's word, and provided you even accept that there is a God.

    Maybe so during early indoctrination . . . but for the average baptised JW . . . J's "eyes are in every place" . . . thoughts must be "in captivity" . . . all must "think in agreement" . . . anything else and you're on the outer . . . and if you don't toe the line . . . you're out.

    What people you are allowed to spend time with (only other JWs). They'll teach you, from the Bible, what God wants, and how best to approach pleasing him. Up to you what you do.

    NO! . . . Not when you're a baptised JW . . . "bad associations spoil useful habit's" . . . no non-JW is acceptable association except as a Bible Study . . . you're urged to limit contact with non-JW work associates and family to only that which is "necessary". Regularly socialising with non-JW's will get you into a lot of trouble.

    That your marriage mate is a Satan worshiper. No, they won't. Not at all. Not unless your marriage mate actually knows and understands all that the Bible says and then actively chooses to turn his/her back on all of that and, knowing and understanding all the ramifications, chooses to go against God, a deliberate choice. That is a very unlikely event. Therefore they don't teach that your marriage mate is a Satan worshipper. QED.

    Anybody outside of the "truth" and supports the systems of this "world" . . . sports and leisure clubs, voting etc. . . . is having dealings with "satans" system . . . part of mankind alienated from God and supporting Satan . . . including non-JW marriage mates.

    You can never have a blood transfusion for you or your children. Yes, because that is what they perceive the Bible as saying. Find out what they really teach and make your own choice.

    The italics are what they really teach . . . I see no need to qualify or correct Talesin's statement.

    That your family of birth is, like your mate, a Satan worshiper. Not true at all, see above for marriage mate.

    Basically it is true . . . see marriage mate answer

    That you cannot join the military or sell tobacco products as part of your job. Correct, not if you wish to be a JW. Why? Find out their actual reasons and make your choice.

    Correct

    That you must be SUBMISSIVE to your husband, and his decisions are FINAL. Almost completely true, but find out their actual reasons and make your choice.

    I am wondering at this point why these points are being refuted and the reasons not being given?? The italics are true . . . the extent to which it is obeyed may vary. I know of two MS's who had priveleges removed because their wives "were not in submission" in the opinion of an Elder.

    That the only basis for divorce is INFIDELITY (yes, he can beat you black and blue, but you can't divorce him). Not entirely true but as above for finding out exactly what they really teach. In practice, it isn't true at all. I know of four sisters just in our local congregation who obtained divorces because of severe beatings, and are JW's in good standing. Three were actually rescued by elders, one in this congregation and the others elsewhere.

    My experience . . . if you are married to a non-JW husband you will be encouraged to leave for all manner of things. If you're husband is JW and he beats you . . . any complaint to the shepherds will result in counsel to be more submissive. I know one sister who was threatened with DF'ing because her husband regularly abused (hit) her and she dared to complain to others, thus slandering him.

    There will absolutely be NO Christmas, birthdays, halloween, 4th of July, or ANY celebration except your wedding anniversary and what they call "the Memorial", which is a celebration of Jesus' death. Pretty well yes, but find out why they teach what they do and make your choice. As to the Memorial, it is not so much celebrating Jesus' death but the ransom paid for us. A very big subject, so best to find out what they really teach.

    What they teach . . . anyone can find out . . . I suspect Penelope is here to find out from us what they do. The point being made is that they do not celebrate anything formally apart from the memorial

    That you MUST go door-to-door and 'preach the word' on a regular basis. Find out what they really teach and why.

    I presume if you've been studying Penelope, you'll already know why . . . and will know this statement is true.

    If you are a smoker, you are EVIL and WILL be disfellowshipped. They teach that smoking is unclean and displeasing to Jehovah. Well, in the UK every tobacco product carries a large prominent label stating "Smoking Kills". Find out what theiy really teach and why.

    JW's also connect smoking with drug-taking and spiritism. They then connect the greek word for "spiritism" (“pharmakia”) with devil-worship . . . which, naturally, is EVIL . . . Talesin is therefore correct.

    Again, sorry Talesin, hate to challenge you like that, but those statements really weren't fair and accurate. Whether or not one agrees with JW teaching is one thing, but it's reasonable not to misrepresent what they actually say and why they say it.

    I hate to challenge you also charliko . . . but as I said . . . Talesins summary, while concise, is essentially true. To label someone's elses satements from their personal experience "misleading" without saying exactly why, is what I consider misleading. To cast doubt on those statements and then direct Penelope to "find out what they really teach" is not only misleading, but dangerous IMO.

    What they teach and how they actually apply it . . . are two very different things. It's because their "scriptural" teachings (which may appear innocuous) are actually very constrictive control mechanisms.

    It may be that some have different experiences of these things . . . but my experience of them was over 26 years in 8 different congregations. I became a JW because I liked their teachings . . . I stopped because I could no longer tolerate what they do.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Hi Penelope, Welcome....

    Like yourself I studied with the witnessess, however unlike you I was not onto them as quickly, because I studied on and off for about 10 years and was nearly baptised.

    My only advise to you would be to continue reading information about the Watchtower society and their history.. Its not pretty. They will try to defend against what you discover but in the end you will discover soooo much you won't even want to talk about it with them any more. Because you will realise that all you are hearing are excuses and rubbish. What I found interesting was that often what I discovered about Watchtower history they honestly were not even aware of.....but they certainly didn't want to hear about it either..In the end their only reply was "well if we're not in the Truth....who is?". My answer to that now is "No Religion" has the truth. They are ALL self serving.

    I still have my faith, but now I chose to look for myself and make up my own mind. Took a little while for me to find my feet, but now....I'M OFF!!!

    I also had some strange experiences years ago...(the unexplained kind, but not UFO)...but to be honest I no longer choose to discuss them on this board because strong feelings for and against can make this topic extremely unpleasant on here. Personally I struggle with people who have opinions on this that havent experienced it but think they know better. Or people that try to brush it off as just some unexplained event that given time, science will be able to give us the answers to....so I no longer discuss it here at all. But of course, thats just how I feel.

    Any whoooooo, welcome again, hope you stick around

    *edit* Good Lord Sizemik!!! I now have an awful image of you in my head wearing a scrufy suit, tie that too bright, pointy shoes and a loud shirt!!!

    I gotta tell ya....It ain't pretty

  • Paulapollos
    Paulapollos

    Hi PenelopePaige,

    I'm sure you have had so much advice, that your head is spinning. On this site, you will find people who come from every aspect of the JW world - from unbaptized publishers to JW missionaries. ConcernedJW is absolutely right. On this site, you will find these ex-JW's have an agenda. That agenda is quite open - ask each of them. Their agenda is to tell you the truth.

    I, like many here, was a convert to this religion. I became a Witness because I was amazed that so much of what the Witnesses said made sense. I was amazed at just how much of the Bible they quoted and used, how much of their decisions and activities seemed to be based on what it said. I had never seen anything like it - kind, honest, generous people, loving and warm. I made many wonderful friends, met many lovely people. I followed their direction, stopped associating with friends in my life who were not JW's, and made the changes I needed to to be acceptable for baptism. I pioneered, served in the congregation, and later served in a very responsible position at Bethel, the JW's branch office.

    It was much later that I came to see many of the things that disturbed me. Each one of the things I am about to write is a fact. It can be confirmed by asking the JW's you study with, whether it is true. why not put them to the test?

    JW's are a high control group, Penelope. They will exercise their authority over you, and your family life. When you become a JW, you surrender yourself to the authority of the organisation. Ask your study conductor if these are true:

    - The organisation claims to have the authority to speak on God's behalf - no-one else on earth is authorised by God to teach about him. No-one else on Earth teaches the truth.

    - If you attempt to study the history of the organisation with outside sources, then come to a different conclusion to the organisation (about itself), you are not permitted to share that info with other JW's, because you may stumble them.

    - If you disagree with something written in the WT, and repeatedly discuss it with your JW friends, you are likely to recieve a visit from the elders.

    - If you read the Bible, and come up with a different understanding of what you read to the JW interpretation, you are not permitted to share that with others. If you do, you will recieve a visit from the elders.

    - If you share your different understanding with JW's, you are likely to be branded an apostate, thrown out, and your friendships with other members are severed - they are not permitted to speak to you.

    Each of above are marks of a high-control group. Check if the JW's have them. www.jwfacts.com has all the evidence, from their own literature. Ask your study conductor each of these questions. Then ask yourself, do I want to be subject to this? Do I want my family to be subject to this?

    If so, then Penelope Paige, good luck to you. If you don't, then I echo what others have said here. Run, and do so very quickly.

    PP

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    Let me put your distasteful image to rest still thinking . . .

    The suit was "scruffy" because it wasn't actually a "suit" . . . back trousers and a dark charcoal coat that alas . . . didn't match.

    The tie was red (shock horror) . . . I was told I was "power dressing"

    The shirt was maroon . . . but too colorful for platform work.

    The shoes were narrow at the toe . . . but good quality black italian leather ... and rather nice shoes IMO.

    Anyways . . . . now I can be as loud as I like . . .

  • ThomasCovenant
    ThomasCovenant

    Hello Penelope Paige,

    Paulapollos said

    -If you attempt to study the history of the organisation with outside sources, then come to a different conclusion to the organisation (about itself), you are not permitted to share that info with other JW's, because you may stumble them.

    - If you disagree with something written in the WT, and repeatedly discuss it with your JW friends, you are likely to recieve a visit from the elders.

    - If you read the Bible, and come up with a different understanding of what you read to the JW interpretation, you are not permitted to share that with others. If you do, you will recieve a visit from the elders.

    - If you share your different understanding with JW's, you are likely to be branded an apostate, thrown out, and your friendships with other members are severed - they are not permitted to speak to you.

    Although every Witness is aware of the above, albeit subconciously, they still stay. I know I did. I was brainwashed.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    You rebel you .....hee hee *psychedelic baby*

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