A brother at my wife's congregation wants to study the Bible Teach book... (page 5)

cantleave

Jw definition of Christian = JW

any other professed christian = devil worshipping false Christian

cantleave (but did): Yes, that is what I was thinking too when he kept talking about how Christians can't take a life but government authorities can. Frankly, I never heard of such nonsense and I may go further down this road if it bears fruit. This could lead us to the 1914 doctrine if it plays out something like this:

Me: Last week you said that Christians cannot take life but government authorities can? What if some members of government are Christian?

Bro Hero: True Christians do not get involved with government.

Me: I see, so true Christians are not involved with government, does this mean that any Christian who is not involved in government is a true Christian?

And on and on until it eventually leads to him pointing out that only Jehovah's Witnesses are true Christians.

If that is the case then that he will have to prove. Everything he says for their group can be said for other groups except one thing, the selection in 1919.

Black Sheep

It is interesting how God could view life so sacred and yet witnesses would rather watch their precious children die than allow them to receive a blood transfusion that could save it.

The WT says the Bible says that blood transfusions break God's law therefore it is better to die now and be resurrected than break God's law and be killed forever, with no hope of Paradise, at Armageddon.

Life in Paradise takes precedence over life now. It might not make sense to you, but it makes sense to them.

They don't give a toss what the Bible says. The GB is God's channel, and they receive instruction from him, via HS. Therefore, whatever logic you pull out to 'confuse' them is from the Devil.

Do not discuss things that you are confused about. Ask about them here, or research their literature, to find out their official postion.

Discuss things he is confused about. If you sense any confusion, ask him to prove his point.

Direct difficult questions to the kid.

Chris

garyneal

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the response. Perhaps I am going about it the wrong way. A part of me is only doing this because my wife thinks this will help me to understand more about them. Apparently she thinks I am confused and if only I would do a Bible study then perhaps I will understand more. Of course, she also thinks that I do not have the right 'heart condition' to accept truth, even if it stares me right between the eyes. (Yeah, I see the irony there too.)

OKay, if you were in my shoes, which way would you take this?

I'm thinking of letting the chapter go all the way through with little disagreement on the idea that life is precious and that we should try to have a Godly view of things. I was considering pointing out the contradiction of a God who values life while simultaneously promoting a belief that can send people to their early graves (blood doctrine). But, I am also aware that Christians believe that it is an honor to die for one's faith, a kind of way to score lots of points with the big man upstairs. So I figured that would fall on deaf ears.

I could point out the extra biblical changes to the doctrines and how people adhered to the old beliefs and died for them (presumably in vain since those beliefs are now rendered moot by new light). But maybe that is not a good idea either.

Black Sheep

You can take the discussion as far as you like. It would do him good to be confronted with points of view he has never considered. Just don't expect him to throw his hands in the air and inform all and sundry that he has been misled by a cult as a result of studying this chapter with you. Patience is a virtue.

Just be aware that snipping away at leaves is a difficult way to kill a tree.

A better target than doctrine, (and I haven't done any homework on this book), is any dishonesty. Out of context quotes etc.. If you find one, ask him to read it and explain it. Try to get him to tell you it is a dishonest quote. You probably won't succeed, but he has to know he is being dishonest with you to defend the use of the quote.

Remember ..... you don't have to 'win'. You just need to make him think.

But before any of that .... you have to know your goal.

If you are doing this to get your wife out, she needs to fully understand that he threw in the towel because he was a beaten man, with no sensible answers and no help from his god, or his church. How are you going to do that?

garyneal

Some great threads for me to cross check as I am going through this study.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/208832/1/How-to-win-a-religious-argument

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/214021/1/Wife-is-on-that-yellow-brick-road-to-the-WT

garyneal

Just don't expect him to throw his hands in the air and inform all and sundry that he has been misled by a cult as a result of studying this chapter with you.

Indeed, it is not my goal to try to convince him that he is wrong or to change his beliefs.

Just be aware that snipping away at leaves is a difficult way to kill a tree.

Point well taken and I am guessing that the whole trunk of the matter is the selection in 1919. If that is the case then as I pointed out to cantleave (who did), his reasoning on the government authorities having the authority to take a life but Christians cannot could lead us to this discussion.

A better target than doctrine, (and I haven't done any homework on this book), is any dishonesty. Out of context quotes etc.. If you find one, ask him to read it and explain it.

Got it, the man did tell me to read up on this chapter before our next study session. I will use this opportunity to try to find anything quoted out of context (even the Bible).

But before any of that .... you have to know your goal.

My goal? Hmmm.... Well, as far as I see it the whole purpose of his studying the 'Bible' with me is because my wife thinks I will benefit. She believes that all these apostates have misled me and that if I only studied with an actual witness then I might be able to see the light. Therefore, I guess my goal is to see if indeed anyone has any honest answers to my questions concerning this religion and any real proof that this religion is all it claims. I've told my wife this on several occasions that if they can prove 1919 to me, I will suit up and become baptized at the next assembly.

If you are doing this to get your wife out, she needs to fully understand that he threw in the towel because he was a beaten man, with no sensible answers and no help from his god, or his church. How are you going to do that?

I'm not exactly sure how to be honest. When I questioned an elder at my mother in law's congregation about the new light definition of this generation, he eventually copped out and stated that it was not their primary doctrine. When I told my wife that I had cornered him and he did this in response, she refused to believe me. I'm afraid she is just going to conclude that my heart condition is not right rather than try to objectively examine the questions at hand.

garyneal

Thanks for all the great advice so far. It is late and I am going to bed.

Perhaps a little reading material to put me to sleep?

Bible Teach Book

Black Sheep

he eventually copped out and stated that it was not their primary doctrine.

They quite often try to devalue the importance of a doctrine/rule when they are in the crap. It is a sign that you are on the right subject and that you should not change it and should not let them change it until you are good & ready. If they are going to lie to you, make them pay.

Ask questions along the lines of, "Can I become a baptised JW, even an Elder, if I don't believe that doctrine/rule and refuse to preach/abide by it?"

"If my daughter/wife got baptised, then decided that she didn't belive that doctine/rule was correct, could she be disfellowshipped if she refused to preach/abide by it?"

"How can you tell me that it isn't important when you could end up telling me I should shun my daughter if she gets thrown out for not believing/preaching/living that rule/doctrine?

"Can you show me that in your literature or rulebook please?" (Don't say Elder's manual, Flock book etc. )

Call over some more JWs and your wife and ask them to verify what Brother Denial has proposed. Address your questions to the one who is looking at his shoes.

Now that you have established that it is important, and hopefully have a bigger audience, you want Brother Denial to explain the doctrine/rule in a sensible manner to you and his audience.

When I told my wife that I had cornered him and he did this in response, she refused to believe me.

Herein lies the problem. It has to be fixed or you just waste your efforts.

If she isn't a witness to Brother Hero getting trashed, she will just blame you for not having the right heart condition and Brother Hero will not let you off the hook by explaining the true situation. The only way she might get the message is if Brother Hero chucks his book bag in your trash can and never darkens the doorstep of a KH again ............... and that is not going to happen.

the-illuminator81

Be sure to mention Luke 14:5 when you discuss the blood doctrine. It shows that life is so precious that it is more important than law, even more important than upholding the sabbath.

A brother at my wife's congregation wants to study the Bible Teach book...

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