Well done Gary.
I wonder how well he is sleeping?
Chris
A brother at my wife's congregation wants to study the Bible Teach book...
by garyneal 79 Replies latest jw friends
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the-illuminator81
I don't understand how they can just skim over Jesus refusing to obey the Sabbath laws to care for a person.. that sets a clear precedent right there. Aren't we supposed to follow by Jesus example? So the excuse "Well Jesus can do anything he wants" is not a valid one. Jesus was here to set an example, and his example was that it is wrong to sacrifice life for law.
I guess the more you push, the more he will defend, even up to a ridiculous point and then all you can do is feel sorry for the man and continue on..
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garyneal
Okay, had another study with hime yesterday. We had to change things up a little bit since my wife went back to college this semester on Monday's and Tuesday's. So we will meet on Thursday's for the time being. He wanted to go over chapter one as we finished up chapter 13 two weeks ago.
To wrap up the topic on blood, I concluded by asking him that since I did not agree with their current teaching, would it be possible for me to still be a witness. He hesistated and then confidently replied, "You will." I was a bit beside myself with that remark. He could not possible expect me to just change my mind like that. I guess he thinks the indoctrination will help, I guess. At any rate, he wanted to start at chapter one.
We went over about eight paragraphs, talked about God allowing suffering but not causing it. I pointed out that the Bible has God explicitely giving orders to the Israelites to murder all the Canaanites. He responded in a way that I expected. "They were wicked people, some of them survived, you remember Rahaab?"
He asked me what I thought my purpose in life was, I replied by saying that Christians believe in serving God and others. Of course, he gave a long winded explanation of things and concluded with, "We're here to serve Jehovah."
One paragraph spoke of people not bothering to answer big questions but rather leaving them to the clergy. He added pastors, deacons, etc.. I thought, "What irony, and here we are following the FDS." LOL
Anyone, I am just playing along for now while I scan ahead for some questions. He is a likeable guy and has been in the TROOF for nearly 40 years but he is only a pioneer. I wonder if he was ever an elder? He says he's seen it all, and perhaps he has, but I would imagine that this chapter (or others) will lead up to him trying to convince me that the witnesses have the truth. I will simply question a few things.
Any suggestions?
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garyneal
Alright, had another study with him. Frankly, I am kind of growing weary of these studies but at times we have interesting comments.
We continued with the first chapter of the book and we went over the portion that spoke of God's name. As we all know, they insist that Jehovah is the proper name for God and that you cannot have a relationship with Him without knowing His name. I asked him a few questions.
Me: Isn't Yahweh the prefered pronunciation of God's name?
Hero: Well, Yahweh is one pronunciation of His name but the scriptures say, Jehovah.
Me: Really? I'm sorry, I do not mean to argue the point. I know that a lot of Christians agree with Jehovah and even utter that as His name. However, when I hear that 'the scriptures' make that to be His name, it reminds me of an old church I used to attend that insist that the King James translation of the Bible is the 'Word Of God.' They even go as far as say that the NIV is inspired by Satan, so you must forgive me when I hear you say something like, "The Scriptures Say...." What scriptures? What translation? So much of what was taught me by that old church I later found to be fundamentally wrong.
Hero: Well, we're not perfect and we don't always get things right but we all do the best we can and God sees that.
So we go on reading the paragraphs and he starts talking about how important God's name is again and how we need to know what it is.
Me: I've heard that Jehovah was a false name invented by a 13th century Catholic monk, is this true?
Hero: I haven't heard of that, but you just read it in your Bible and it was written in 1611 (I have a KJV).
Me: After that name was invented in the 13th century. What if it is false?
Hero: If you look in history, throughout history, the name Jehovah was always used. Also look at the appendix in the back of your Bible Teach book and you will get more information.
Me: I will.
Hero: You see, the Catholic Pope back in 1905 declared that the name should be removed from all their writings. They will have to answer for that one day?
Me: REALLY? Why? Didn't you just say a few minutes ago that none of us was perfect and if the name is so important, which one is it? Yahweh or Jehovah? Besides, where the name was removed, the word LORD is in all caps to indicate where the tetragrammaton was translated.
I have to admit, I was floored at that comment and I also said that I would like to think God is not THAT petty.
Hero: Oh well God is that petty and they will have to answer for it because it is not due to their being imperfect. Instead, it is due to their deliberately removing the name of God from the Bible.
And there you have it, God is so petty that we must know that His name is Jehovah and while Yahweh is suitable don't you dare simply use LORD. I could've asked why Jesus never uttered His name but I figured I'd save that for later. In addition to all of this he said that while the Hebrew has no letter J the Bible has the names Joshua and Jacob in the Hebrew, so why not Jehovah. I responded by speculating that perhaps since the name was never to be said by the Jews, then the pronunciation may have simply been lost and therefore no one really knows how it was pronounced and what the modern translation would be. Unlike Joshua or Jacob, the divine name was set aside and left Holy and was not to be spoken. But I made sure that I indicated that I was merely speculating.
Also, he hinted on the Trinity teaching when he said that 'many people think Jesus and God are the same.'
Me: As in the Trinity teaching?
Hero: Well, many viewpoints on it exists.
Me: Such as...
Hero: Such as the Deity of Christ.
Me: What does that teach?
Hero: Well, the Deity of Christ basically teaches Jesus is God.
Me: As in being the same as God?
Hero: As in them being the same person.
Me: Well, obviously the scripture in John 17 doesn't show this because there we have Jesus praying to His Father.
Hero: Yeah! Exactly, so they cannot be the same and Jesus never once said He was God, even when the Jews wanted to kill Him because they thought He was equal to God. Jesus never said that He was equal to God. Jesus is a mighty God, but Jehovah is the Almighty. You see some people like to pray to Jesus.
Me: Yeah, that sounds like modalism.
Hero: What's that?
Me: Modalism. It is the belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person (God) and that God just changes modes. One time He is the Father, the next the Son, and the next the Holy Spirit. I've done some research of the Trinity teaching over the years and I know that the Bible does not teach this. While I can see where the Bible does not really teach the Trinity, at least not in the way most Trinitarians believe it, I can see where it could be argued that the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ.
Hero: What do you mean by that?
Me: Well, to tell you the truth, the only way I can really explain it is to go with what the Nicean Creed says and that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are all three seperate people and at the same time are all God.
Hero: Well, uh, well, the scriptures do teach that Jesus is a god.
Me: Is He your Lord and God?
Hero: What do you mean by that?
Me: I mean like in John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus his Lord and God.
Hero: Well, I don't worship Jesus. Jesus never called for people to worship Him. Now people did bow and do obeisance to Him but no one ever worshipped Him.
Ah, questioned dodged and I am just now realizing this or then again maybe he did answer in the negative. I must admit, his level of ignorance is pretty astounding. Last week we were talking about politicians and he stated that everyone looked to Obama like he was a savior of some kind. I just responded that I figured everyone was excited that Obama was our first black president but he went on about how people expected Obama to solve all their problems and looked to him like he was some sort of savior. Then he stated that under him gas prices went from about a $1.50 to over $3.00 a gallon. Wow, epic fail! I had to point out that this was not the case and that gas prices rose more sharply under Bush, not that any president has any real control over this. He was adamant until I broke it down for him in terms of what my wife and I remembered from the time we moved out here until now.
He asked me to look at the appendix pertaining to God's name and 1914 (I brought that subject up last week).
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wannabefree
Thanks for sharing. Glad your study is going well. Keep it up, you'll accept that blood doctrine yet. ;)
When I was a progressing study my conductor took me golfing (I found out later they did that to count their time golfing) and I was reasoning on the Jesus being "a god" thing with him, I questioned him about that, wondering if that made Jesus a false god since there is only one true God? Of course he didn't like that line of reasoning and told me that was how apostates talked, so I stuffed the topic.
Next time why don't you try that ... Jesus is not Almighty God? But Jesus is a Mighty God? How many Gods do you believe in? So there is only one true God? So would you call Jesus a false god? Well, if he isn't a true god, what other option is there? So then you do believe that the Bible rightly calls Jesus a god? So then Jehovah's witnesses are polytheistic?
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garyneal
One more thing before I head to bed. He and I spoke about grieving the Holy Spirit. Naturally I asked him about that since he kept insisting that the Holy Spirit is not a person. He said that the Holy Spirit works in your mind to help you discern right and wrong and when you go against something you know is right, you are sinning against the Holy Spirit. If you sin against the Holy Spirit, you have no hope of redemption.
Me: I thought that was if you blasphemed the Holy Spirit.
Hero: Well, yeah, blasphemed.
Me: Well that's a relief. If it was merely sinning then I would have no hope.
Hero: You wouldn't if you sinned against the Holy Spirit.
Me: Well, the way I understood it, blaspheming the Holy Spirit was taking the works of God and crediting them to Satan.
Hero: Well, yeah and I think that people who believe in evolution credit God's works to Satan and they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.
So there you have it folks, believe in evolution and you are lost forever.
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OnTheWayOut
Strength to you garyneal, but I doubt you are getting through to this guy.
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garyneal
Keep it up, you'll accept that blood doctrine yet.
Yeah, really. He never answered that to my satisfaction and keeps insisting that if I complete the Bible Teach propaganda book that I will somehow get it.
He apparently does not get it, his level of ignorance as to his own doctrines are truly astounding.
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garyneal
Strength to you garyneal, but I doubt you are getting through to this guy.
I'm getting that impression too. I will take it as far as the 1914 doctrine and after that I am calling it quits.
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garyneal
So then Jehovah's witnesses are polytheistic?
That did cross my mind and I may bring it up next week.