I hate to say it, but some of the "logic" expressed on this thread almost makes the Watchtower torture stake look reasonable.
Well, almost.
The Ancient Jewish CROSS and the ancient Hebrew letter Taw
by brit-93108 72 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Broken Promises
Someone forgot to take their meds.
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brit-93108
I just wanted to follow-up on Leolaia's comments by saying your knowledge of this subject is very impressive. Thanks for contributing to this thread. I hated it when people pretend to be in the know, and I certainly don't claim to know a lot about this subject, which is why one might say I decided to float a "trial balloon" on this site. It's interesting and thought provoking to see it dodged stray bullets until you, Leolaia, it a bullseye, and I tip my hat to you.
Although I have a good BS detector and can often spot what is patently wrong (the stake teaching, which I'm sure would cause Russell to turn in his grave) I lack the scholarly background to know why it's wrong. Is the founder of a religion that claims to be "the one true religion" that emerged after a dark age -- yet has no inspiration on its so-called "faithful slave" roots or lineage through that dark age -- be "inspired" by God to glorify the Cross on its Zion's Watch Tower cover and then mysteriously discover "whoops, big mistake... but don't get us wrong, doesn't mean we're not still the true religion, and to prove it we won't even posthumously disfellowship our founder for apostasy but acknowledge his place with the 144,000 in Heaven instead"? I dunno.
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sinis
The cross is over 10,000 years old.
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james_woods
The cross is over 10,000 years old.
But...how can that be? Humankind is only about 6,000 years old - right?
Oh - never mind.
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brit-93108
Don't get me started. At least the wise old men in Patterson seem to generally teach the Earth itself could be any age (as Jehovah is ageless so time is irrelevant, a billion years is a twinkle in His eye). An elder once explained Earth is like a big terrarium that God got started and let "percolate" for billions of years. When the environment was just right, just like you add a lizard to a acquarium after painstakingly preparing its habitat, God added Adam and Eve to the biosphere just 6,000 years ago.
Now I say "at least" they believe this, because I didn't realize how truly bad and cheesy fundamentalists can get, until I got on this email list from a right wing creationist zionist list. Their newsletters and site articles argue that Earth, the Moon, and the stars are no more than 6,000 years, and actually have scientists writing articles (seems from their impressive degrees they are in an Orwellian double-think mode, defending the good fight of the faith or whatever). This fundamentalist movement has mainstream Christendom churches backing it. Can you imagine the mind-numbing self imposed ignorance of this?
You think the Watchtower is bad as it gets? Oh no, they're standing at the gates of scientific denial, but through those gates is a purgatory of mind numbing stupidity even Dante would consider allegorical in fiendish self-delusion.
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Bella15
We will never learn new things if we keep the Watchtower/Rutherford teachings as BASELINE. Their teachings are corrupted and the result will always be corrupted. One has to start with a new canvas, model, one given by GOD. That's why it is so important to pray God for knowledge, understanding, wisdom when it comes to His things.
base line or base·line (b
sln)n. 1. a. A line serving as a basis, as for measurement, calculation, or location. b. A measurement, calculation, or location used as a basis for comparison.
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Bella15
This is how the Watchtower Corporation manipulates information. WHY DIDN’T THE WATCHTOWER TELL ITS READERS ABOUT ALL THE ILLUSTRATIONS.
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http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=437&Itemid=8
ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE
In the KIT article, they quote from a book by an obscure German author who wrote over a century ago. His observations were made on the evidence available to him then and not on currently available evidence. The KIT then says..."The evidence is therefore completely lacking that Jesus Christ was crucified on two pieces of timber placed at a right angle. ... The passing of time and further archaeological discoveries will be certain to prove its correctness."
These words were being printed in Brooklyn, New York, but meanwhile, in Israel...
In Giv'at ha Mitvar, north of Jerusalem, June 1969, some workers on a housing project unearthed an amazing discovery. Unearthed was the skeleton of a man named Yehohanan (John), son of Chaffol, who had been CRUCIFIED between the ages of 24-28 at about the same time as Jesus died. He was executed on a cross with a crossbeam! Copies of the articles reporting this are found on the following pages , along with reports of earlier discoveries. One of these reports shows that a family tomb was discovered in 1945 and the ossuries (coffins) bore the name 'Jesus" in Greek and CROSSES were drawn on them! These tombs are dated no later than the middle of the first century, before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D., which indicates that the symbol of the cross was used to identify those who followed the 'crucified one' even at that early date.
"DE CRUCE LIBER PRIMUS"
By quoting from this obscure source, the Society hoped their members would be unable to discover for themselves what this book actually says. However, there is one here in Australia, at the Victorian State Library in Melbourne! Copies concerning the relevant pages can be obtained by anyone through their own State Library or Local Municipal Library for those not living in the State capitals. On the following pages are the other pictures found in this book which the Society neglected to tell its members about. They cited ONE picture, which seemed to uphold their positions and then said, "This is the manner in which Jesus was impaled", ignoring the fact that Lipsius believed, based on the evidence that Jesus died on a cross.
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brit-93108
An elder whom I confided in, who believes private inquiry on doubts with a spiritually qualified elder is "healthy" (whilst showing sensitivity to other publishers whom might be stumbled) said "does it really matter what Jesus was impaled on?" When I pressed the issue he insisted "you're beating a horse to death."
If it does not matter then why would expressing a belief it was historically a cross result in disfellowshipment for apostasy? The elder's response, after shrugging and looking around the library. "Well, that's neither here nor there. I think the takeaway here is not to stumble weaker ones" (then quoted some wine scriptures from the NWT). "You're confining our discussions to this room and I don't see a problem. But why beat a horse to death? Why belabour an issue that has little merit other than academic interest from some scholars?"
I think if Jesus died on a cross, it means something. You don't worship or venerate it like the Catholics but you don't trivilise it. Jesus's executors intended to humiliate him by nailing him to a crossbeam (or stake) but he triumphed over death, mental terror and unbearable anguish, finally declaring that it is "finished" before passing away. Suddenly that crossbeam (or stake) became a proverbial middle finger aimed right at Satan's face, an embarassment to the devil, proof positive that his end is near. That makes it worthy, not of veneration or idolatrous worship, but as symbolic in its own right as the Tetragrammaton itself -- for it glorifies the truth of Jehovah, that men will choose Him out of free will.
The WTS must recognise this, otherwise like the elder said, it's an inconsequential issue unworthy of speculation. They take a position, yes, they changed a position of a man who was the very reason they exist at all, their founder. If it is not an issue wouldn't they have played it safe, presented evidence supporting a stake, but left it to "make up your own minds" in order to avoid controversy?
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aristeas
THX, LEOLAIA FOR THAT '58 WT QUOTATION
PRECIOUS!
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