2nd post from the top baby? I'm on it!!!
Who was Cains wife?
by trailerfitter 57 Replies latest watchtower bible
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startingover
Good point No Room...if you choose to believe that what the bible says about the origin of man, then it makes more sense that Yahweh was a local deity, with his own little experiment in Eden. A whole bunch of people already existed outside Eden. Actually it reeks of some mythological story which I believe it is.
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No Room For George
Ahhh, good post Shelby!! That makes sense to me. I think the WT study today is influencing my thoughts about distant peoples wanting to do Cain harm. It mentioned Paul's thoughts about peoples without The LAw, living lives in harmony with the law, doing what's right naturally. That being said, it made me wonder if its possible that word of Cain's crime could have gotten out to those not in the immediate vicinity of where the incident took place and they may have wanted to handle Abel's business.
Something else I didn't really think about was Cain's age, and for that matter how long people lived anyway back in those days. I can't recall if Cain's age at death was ever revealed, but if he would have lived multiple centuries after the incident, it goes without saying that adult relatives of Abel, Adam, and Eve, possibly adult grandkids and great grandkids, heck even great great grandkids might be looking to do Cain harm.
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AGuest
Top of THIS page, RoosterMan...
Peace.
SA, on her own...
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No Room For George
Good point No Room...if you choose to believe that what the bible says about the origin of man, then it makes more sense that Yahweh was a local deity, with his own little experiment in Eden. A whole bunch of people already existed outside Eden. Actually it reeks of some mythological story which I believe it is.
Thanks, Starting! I still believe that there was plenty of activity going on beyond the scope of what was written in the Bible. I don't believe the flood account in the scriptures was global in nature, only a rehashed story passed on down to the descendents who resided in the area where it supposedly took place. Another thing is this, how the hell was Moses writing about an Oriental named Job? How did the happenings of an Oriental work their way back to a Semite?
Oh yeah, I agree the whole account reeks of mythology, and part of the reason we're so messed up today in society is because we've taken the word of religious folks that many of the accounts in the Bible were factual, which is one of the worst mistakes made by mature peoples today. Believing everything in the Bible, is the equivalent of believing a Nigerian calling you over the phone will double everything in your savings account if you just give him your social security number and banking information.
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startingover
Well said! Great analogy!
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PSacramento
I am trying to understand where, in the verses quoted, does it state that there are other people besides the immediate family. I get that it's implied... based on the way "we" think, but I would like to offer that I have received from our Lord that that was not the case at all but, rather, that Cain was concerned about the "law" of vengeance, which was carried out BY the immediate family of the victim. Based on that law, ANY of Cain's OTHER siblings... as well as his parents... could have come across him later... during his or THEIR travels... and avenged Abel's blood.
Well, the "whoever" implies, as you said, ANYONE and there is no reason for Cian to use that term if he was referring to people that were his imediate family.
That and the fact that he settled in the land of Nod, a land that was already there BEFORE Cain came to it and which would quite porbably have people living there already or it would have been stated to have been uninhabited.
The reality of this is based on the fact that Cain became a "fugitive." A fugitive is one who runs away/hides from those seeking him for some crime. Here, the only people who KNEW of Cain's crime... and the ones against whom, by extension, the crime had been committed... and thus, the only ones who WOULD be seeking him... would be members of Abel's immediate family. Which were the SAME members of CAIN'S immediate family. Thus, the only ones who had a RIGHT to AVENGE Cain's crime against Abel... would be members of CAIN'S immediate family: his parents and/or his siblings. Likewise, the only ones who would be SEEKING him, therefore... would be members of Abel's... and thus Cain's... immediate family.
A valid point, but Cain's concern seem to go beyond his family finding him and God marking Cain makes it clear that a sign of sort was needed to protect him, soemthing that wouldn't be necessary from his immediate family.
And THIS is what Cain was protesting: that he was being sent out, unprotected... to be hunted and killed by his immediate family. Their avenging Abel's blood would be only a matter of time: sure, Cain would wander, but he would also be stalked during. How could anyone live that way, knowing that their death was imminent as soon as an avenger caught up with him? And there was no such thing as a City of Refuge, so there was no where for him to run TO.
One word from God would state that Cain was offlimits and his immediate family wouldn't need some mark to distinguish him.
The Most Holy One of Israel showed Cain MERCY, however, by prohibiting vengeance against him. In this way, should his parents/siblings ever come across him they would have to allow him to live.
We can't have it both ways, dear one: how can the "people" of Nod be different... yet serve the same God as Adam/Eve/Cain? And "they" had to serve Him, yes, if JAH's decree that no one touch Cain were to apply to "them"? Be effective? Otherwise, why the mark? What would such people care about some mark from JaHVeH?
No one is saying that they didn't serve Jah, but I can see the point you are making.
But there were no such people: Cain was being protected from his immediate family, both his parents and his siblings, as later shown in provisions of the Law Covenant... where is was either upon the PARENTS to stone such a [murderous] child... or upon the "avenger" (a sibling) to kill him. ALL, however, were "released" from this... due to MERCY.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
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AGuest
how the hell was Moses writing about an Oriental named Job? How did the happenings of an Oriental work their way back to a Semite?
For one, Moses didn't write about Job, dear RoosterMan (peace to you!): Joseph did, while in Egypt. But c'mon... surely you know that their common ancestor, Abraham... and his father, Tehran... Semites... were called OUT of the East (Orient). That's why it was TO the EAST that Abraham sent his sons by Keturah (hence, their descendants, the Magi, who were looking for my Lord's star while they were IN THE EAST). So both Joseph and Moses would know the account.
Well, the "whoever" implies, as you said, ANYONE and there is no reason for Cian to use that term if he was referring to people that were his imediate family.
Greetings, dear PSacto... and the greatest of love and peace to you! Unfortunately, there is no word "anyone"... or "everyone"... in the Hebrew text. There is only the word "matsa"... which is a primitive root word meaning "to find, meet, encounter" and things like this. That such "finding"[of Cain] is by "anyone/everyone"... is an assumption. My understanding is that it is an inaccurate assumption... because it WASN'T speaking of just anyone... or everyone (as in others outside of the family)... but the family... who would have been the only ones with the RIGHT to kill Cain. Anyone else... assuming "they" also knew of and served JAH (because, again, if not, why the "protection"?)... would not have had that right and, instead, would have ALSO been committing murder. Which would then make THEM subject to be killed by CAIN'S family, on HIS behalf.
Look - true, the Law was "written" yet... but it was in existence. It didn't just come about at Sinai. It only came about IN WRITING ON STONE... because of the Israelite's lack of FAITH... and demonstration that they did not have the Law written on their hearts. Which is what it would have been prior to, as demonstrated by Noah, Abraham, Lot, Joseph, et al.
That and the fact that he settled in the land of Nod, a land that was already there BEFORE Cain came to it and which would quite porbably have people living there already or it would have been stated to have been uninhabited.
Dear one, even Eden was "there" before Cain:
"And JaHVeH God planted a garden eastward (of, in, before, in front of) Eden..."
So Eden, like Nod... was already there. The Most Holy One of Israel just didn't plant the garden in NOD... or any other area. He chose to do so in Eden. The areas had already been named...
Cain's concern seem to go beyond his family finding him and God marking Cain makes it clear that a sign of sort was needed to protect him, soemthing that wouldn't be necessary from his immediate family.
It SEEMS that way... because the scribes, who hadn't/haven't a CLUE as to what actually occurred... and why... have WRITTEN it that way. According to THEIR understanding... and not according to the TRUTH. So, you're reading THEIR "take" on it, dear one... not JAH's or Christ's. The problem WE have... is trying to "hear"... with our EYES. We take what we read with our EYES... as the literal truth. Even though we KNOW we almost always can't trust what we READ with them. Whether today's newspapers or rags... or the Bible.
But you can't hear with your eyes, dear one. You hear... with your ears. Which is what holy spirit is FOR: to help us hear... once our ears have been excavated/opened (Psalm 40:6)
One word from God would state that Cain was offlimits and his immediate family wouldn't need some mark to distinguish him.
(Smile) We can't be that naive, dear P: Cain killed his own brother, which was surely against anything the Most Holy One of Israel allowed. Why would we assume that JAH's just SAYING "hands off Cain" would stop a subsequent sibling from sinning in a LIKE manner... let alone when such one believed himself/herself to have the RIGHT?? Cain obviously didn't listen when HE was verbally warned - why assumed that everyone who came AFTER him would do "better"... without MORE than just a verbal warning?
The accounts in the Bible often don't make sense for a REASON, dear one: those who undertook to enscribe them didn't have all of the details, if they had ANY of them. You truly CANNOT overlook our Lord's proclamation to the scribes. He condemned their work FOR A REASON: because their styluses WERE FALSE. But he doesn't leave us to depend upon them! HE will tells us... and lead us... into ALL truth - including the truth about THESE things - if we only go to HIM... and listen... to HIM. I know you understand what I mean.
Again, the greatest of love and peace to you... and your entire household!
YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA
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No Room For George
For one, Moses didn't write about Job, dear RoosterMan (peace to you!): Joseph did, while in Egypt. But c'mon... surely you know that their common ancestor, Abraham... and his father, Tehran... Semites... were called OUT of the East (Orient). That's why it was TO the EAST that Abraham sent his sons by Keturah (hence, their descendants, the Magi, who were looking for my Lord's star while they were IN THE EAST). So both Joseph and Moses would know the account.
Actually, its unknown who specifically wrote Job, but some traditions state that it was Moses. By the way, those traditions are Jewish, they wrote the book, so I'd figure they'd have more credibility than the rest of us. Regardless, it doesn't matter, the possiblity exists that the populations in ancient times were more significant than we give credit for and that the Bible is limited in its scope and history of mankind.
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AGuest
Actually, its unknown who specifically wrote Job, but some traditions state that it was Moses.
Some... traditions... yes, dear RM (again, peace to you!).
By the way, those traditions are Jewish, they wrote the book, so I'd figure they'd have more credibility than the rest of us.
Perhaps. I mean, it's not like THEY got anything wrong, is it?
Regardless, it doesn't matter, the possiblity exists that the populations in ancient times were more significant than we give credit for and that the Bible is limited in its scope and history of mankind.
The possibility, yes, of course. I mean, we can imagine anything, can't we... and anything we can imagine is a possibility. Right? Except for my hearing Christ speak, of course. That's the only IMpossibility. Right? Hey, look: believe what you will, dear one - that's the beauty of being a free moral agent: we get to choose. But I did not lie to you, truly. I shared exactly what I received... from One who would know. I totally understand if you can't receive that... or wrap your head around it. I do not think less of you or anything like that. I just shared the truth, is all... whether you hear or refrain.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA