by cedars 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
leavingwt - it amazes me that many don't have a problem with evangelizing for an organization they themselves no longer believe in.
It's the FEAR. The very real fear of losing friends and family. Have you read Hassan's books? The JWs are merely one high-control group. There are many other groups that are far more demanding and destructive.
Cedars -
it must feel to do it when you know in your heart it's all lies and you are leading others to make the same mistakes you've made.
The last time I went on 'the ministry' was some leaflet capaign. It was unbearable. I just couldn't carry on. I found a convenient wall to hide behind for ages. When I did actually meet someone who said : 'I'm a catholic!' I said: 'That's good, just continue with that then!'
I cannot be untrue myself. This isn't a belligerant stance by any means...it's just honest.
As for a 5th column......each to his own.....again, I couldn't pull it off.
No Room For George - I wasn't trying to make any assumptions from your statement and I hate those that do that sort of thing. I respect everyone's beliefs so long as they are genuine. Can I assume that you feel comfortable evangelizing for the witnesses solely on the basis of them being a christian religion, and therefore you feel that you are leading them to Christ, and not to the FDS?
Do you subscribe to the idea of "where else shall we go?"
I'm not looking to pick a fight or disrespect anybody's sincere beliefs, I'm geninely interested in knowing your reasons, which I'm sure are well thought through.
leavingwt - I can totally sympathise personally with the fear of LOSING family, as well as simply displeasing them. I was interested in knowing whether there are any other justifiable reasons to continue a pretense other than those that are family-related?
punkofnice - I think we're on the same page there. Your picture's hilarious really, don't change it. Is that really what apostates look like do you think? I haven't seen one for ages, so I wouldn't know. At least now I can picture you as talking like Johnny Rotten when I'm reading your comments!
For me it was just impossible to continue door knocking when the 1914 doctrine fell apart for me, I am just too honest, I cannot tell or live a lie.
Today I was given £5.00 too much in my change, I walked back and gave it to the shop-keeper.
It would have been possible to continue for a while with just magazines, and not the awful lying "Bible Teach" book, but once the 1914 thing was clearly wrong, the whole house of cards fell down, and I could no more promote the WT than promote paedophilia. (I know, one and the same in a way).
Many of us have faded and not totally lost family, conditional friends who judge you as weak or a spiritual danger will disappear, but they ain't worth keeping anyway.
If your wife or husband is well in, then I am sorry for you, you may have to live a lie for a while, but keep sawing away at their chains that bind them to the WT, they are not made of hardened steel, they are flimsy.
No Room For George - I wasn't trying to make any assumptions from your statement and I hate those that do that sort of thing. I respect everyone's beliefs so long as they are genuine. Can I assume that you feel comfortable evangelizing for the witnesses solely on the basis of them being a christian religion, and therefore you feel that you are leading them to Christ, and not to the FDS?
Do you subscribe to the idea of "where else shall we go?"
I'm not looking to pick a fight or disrespect anybody's sincere beliefs, I'm geninely interested in knowing your reasons, which I'm sure are well thought through.
Forgive me, I'm a little cranky this morning to be honest with you. Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today, and I apologize. I feel like Tool's Aenema right about now, feel like flushing the world out like a toilet.
As far as the "where else shall we go" question is concerned, my view on that goes back to what I mentioned before on uniformity, along with the WT's doctrine on Babylon the Great. No one individual or organization on this planet in my view has any lock on truth, nor any lock on the dispensing of "spiritual food", which by the way is a term I hate anymore. That being said, I believe a person should be able to go wherever his/her conscience sees fit without social pressure to remain in the organization and primarily at the risk of dividing and possibly losing their family over petty issues such as whether or not Christ died on an upright poll with or without a cross beam.
There's times I've run into people out on the street who weren't affiliated with any church, yet something they said to me gave me encouragement or a gem of wisdom. There's times on this message board, I've read things that have touched me. There's times I've heard a priest or another member of a denomination make a statement that gave me a little more oomph to get through the day. My point is, nobody has any exclusive market on spirtual encouragment in a choke hold. Jesus said, "who is the faithful and discreet slave" in the form of a parabel, not a prophecy. There was nothing exclusive in that illustration.
As far as your question on envangelizing goes, what makes me justify it is this. When I go out there, where I can, I'll try to encourage someone and it does happen occasionally that you'll run into people who are going through things, situations in life where they need to get things off of their chest or need to hear something upbuilding, particulary in poorer neighborhoods. Many of these people already consider themselves Christians, so on that end of things they often can relate to something a JW might share with them from the Bible, or even in the literature. In that sense, I agree with the WT's encouragment of field service to assist other people who could benefit from a kind word or two from the Bible, and heck that's following Christ's example. As far as potential converts are concerned, that's not happening, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw someone convert, at least thats my experiences from being here in the States. Maybe in the foreign fields, and other countries, the WT may be experiencing growth, but here in Western lands, I don't see it. So when I go out in field service, I view it as a combination of it being a mere formality to simply show face, with the possibility of doing something good on behalf of a complete stranger.
That's an interesting argument - that going on the ministry doesn't necessarily equate to converting people. I'm from the UK and I can definitely see that people rarely take things further, even when they give the impression of being keenly interested. What would you do if people wanted to take things further? What if they said "You people have the truth. I want to be a Jehovah's Witness like you!" - what would you say then? Would you have a quiet word with them and tell them what's what? I'm not trying to stir anything by the way, I'm just genuinely curious, because I'm sure you will have anticipated that scenario, rare though it may be.
First of all, I want to thank cedars for starting this thread. I posted something on the 'Sunday Talk' thread that was a response to his comments and I will simply carry on with that here.
I agree with Scarred for life's position. I don't think there is any reason whatsoever, not even family, for permanently remaining one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The financial questions some have mentioned are certainly legitimate ones. Losing an inheritance that would give your family security and comfort cannot be dismissed. Maybe that could justify staying on and then leaving once those questions were settled.
I have no family and am expecting no inheritance, so the decision not to return after I had been disfellowshipped was easier to make. However, the factor that figured most strongly in that decision was keeping my personal integrity. As I have told the few Witnesses who will still talk to me, there is no way I will go door-to-door with a message that is as unscriptural, self-contradictory, and hate-filled as the message Jehovah's Witnesses proclaim. There is no way I will get on a platform even for a TMS talk and expound on teachings I no longer agree with. There is no way I will take part in a Service Meeting. And I certainly will not participate in a book discussion whose only raison d'etre is propagation of WTS falsehoods.
There comes a time to man up. Remaining in an organization that effectively neuters a person is the height of insanity. Even if we no longer believe in a God or the Bible, we must at least believe in ourselves. There is no way to maintain belief while entrapped in a cult. For me, it was my faith in God and the Bible that made me realize I could never return to the organization.
Cedars has mentioned how he has the support of an open-minded and loving wife and how fortunate he is to have it. Many won't find that kind of love and support in their relationships. So deciding to leave the WTS is fraught with all kinds of difficulty, pain, and trauma. Nobody wants to face those things. But that is better than living a lie. That is better than living a life of fear. That is better than surrendering your God-given power of reason and free will to men who have no real love for or interest in you. If you believe in God, then ask him for the strength and courage to do the right thing and his help to sustain you afterwards. If you have no belief in God, then draw upon the resources you have and seek the help and assistance of those people you can trust. Either way, you'll still be better off than remaining a Witness.
Walk away from this cult while you still can. As La Passionaria, one of the rebel leaders in the Spanish Civil War put it so well, "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
Quendi
I was interested in knowing whether there are any other justifiable reasons to continue a pretense other than those that are family-related?
It's simply a matter of opinion. What standards can we use to determine if a reason is justifiable? I'm of the opinion that exiting a destructive, high-control group is always a good thing. However, I appreciate the complexities involved, and the repsect the decisions of others on HOW the exit will take place. I can empathize with those who have a desire to exit, but cannot yet see a way out.
I can empathize with those who have a desire to exit, but cannot yet see a way out.
That's why you da man, donny.
That's why you da man, donny.
I second that.
