On becoming atheist - the tug of war

by Nickolas 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Star tiger

  Greetings Nicholas,

  You may probably be right, but I just like to believe the idea, that facts may or may not change!

  It makes things a lot easier if we are just animals!

  Best Regards,

  Star Tiger
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  bohm

  I think it actually make things a lot harder if we are just animals. it implies we need to figure everything out on our own, that we need to motivate moral in a universe which do not allways reward good behaviour and punish bad.
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  still thinking: we all make our own decisions based on what we want to believe...EVERY ONE OF US.

  But the degree to which we suppress bias makes a huge difference. This reason introspective critical thinking is so imporant is to AVOID falling for what we'd like to believe.

  Every day people 1 billion people walk this earth KNOWING that the Koran is the word of Allah and that their hope is secure. They give in to confirmation bias without even realizing that's what they're doing. A failure or refusal to apply critical thinking keeps them faithful.

  I'd love to believe in paradise on earth more than anything. I want to believe that an omni-god Father exists and cares about me and my family and will soon clean up this mess we're in. That makes me especially skeptical of that idea. Taking steps to suppress that bias has helped me see a bit more clearly.

  So much variation in perspective seems to come down to how well each person identifies and suppresses their deepest prejudices and biases, if at all. This goes for religion, politics... hell, what doesn't it apply to? We have a tendency to protect our cherished views from scrutiny and it's no easy task to push past it and avoid corrupted judgment.

  I could be wrong about all this, though. Clear judgment also requires sobriety, which for the rest of the evening, shall elude me.
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  Star tiger

  Greetings,

  I also like the ideas of Robert Anton Wilson, any thoughts?

  B est Regards,

  Star Tiger
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  Nickolas

  Nope. I haven't read him. How many times are you going to wish us greetings? Welcome.

  I've got dental surgery in the morning. My all time favourite excuse to overindulge in Islay single malts. But that comes tomorrow. See you all afterward.
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  unshackled

  Star tiger...consider that in the 200 years since Darwin's incredible insight on nature, evolution has been the most scrutinized scientific theory ever. It not only has stood tall but a mountain of evidence since has continued to prove it true. If Darwin could see what we've discovered since he'd either shit his trousers or do the chicken dance.
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  still thinking

  SweetBabyCheezits

  We have a tendency to protect our cherished views from scrutiny and it's no easy task to push past it and avoid corrupted judgment

  I have to agree with you. It isn't easy. But we personally have to want to push past it. That is the choice we make.

  I suppose you could say that some people have no choice...if they are never exposed to any other ideas.

  But if we have been exposed to other ideas, we have the choice to go one way or another, and believe one idea over another until maybe or belief is again shattered by more information that tests it.

  Every day people 1 billion people walk this earth KNOWING that the Koran is the word of Allah and that their hope is secure. They give in to confirmation bias without even realizing that's what they're doing. A failure or refusal to apply critical thinking keeps them faithful.

  Has it ever crossed your mind that some of these people (since there are so many), may have applied critical thinking...and still come to the same conclusion?

  I'd love to believe in paradise on earth more than anything. I want to believe that an omni-god Father exists and cares about me and my family and will soon clean up this mess we're in. That makes me especially skeptical of that idea. Taking steps to suppress that bias has helped me see a bit more clearly.

  Has it? So something you would like to happen is definately NOT POSSIBLE because you have surpressed that desire. How does that make your final personal decision more correct? I understand about bias....but doesn't that mean you are simply dismissing a possiblilty of something being true becuase now you don't want to believe it?
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  AGuest

  I'm now pickling it with a nice Shiraz, Shelby.

  Figure you're snug in bed, by now, dear Nick (peace to you!), but wanted to say that I hate Shiraz... and Syrah. Bleh. I was a Zin girl. Or a nice Pinot Noir. Chianti. Merlot. All that's behind me, now, though. Doesn't mix well with the current narcotics I'm taking!

  "See" you when the haze has cleared!

  SA, on her own...
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  StillThinking: But we personally have to want to push past it. That is the choice we make.

  That's true. And I suppose it would help if that person had some basic understanding of human psychology and how our minds constantly decieve us. If they hadn't identified that as a potential problem, it would be hard to address.

  But for those who have a heightened sense of awareness, why would a person choose to embrace bias (in matters of faith) instead of pushing to suppress it? Maybe for some it depends on whether the goal is truth or contentment.

  “Here the ways of men part: If you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; If you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire.”
  -Nietzsche

  But I'm sure, as usual, there are factors and circumstances I'm not considering... apathy among other things (though that might fall under the "peace of soul" category).

  Has it ever crossed your mind that some of these people (since there are so many), may have applied critical thinking...and still come to the same conclusion?

  For clarification, critical thinking is needed to separate truth from fiction, right? So we can agree that a friend who fails to question the validity of the "Nigerian prince who needs your funds" is, thereby, failing to use critical thinking? And if this friend tells us, "but I asked him for his birthdate and the name of his parents," we recognize that any CT he demonstrated lacked the depth needed to make an informed, intelligent decision.

  Also, I'd like to note that the "since there are so many" plea is an appeal to the masses. One billion Muslims, for example, can all fail to use critical thinking. That's a lot of people. Their greater numbers don't add credence to their claims. And based on logic alone, all religions can't be right... but they could all be wrong. (borrowed)

  The very essence of critical thinking means these people would have to accept a large degree of uncertainty, which is incompatible with many faiths, right? And then I suspect there are those who believe they are using critical thinking.. but only because they aren't fully aware of what CT involves. (That's how I'd describe myself 7 years ago... and to some extent, now. )

  Critical thinking and the most common types of faith, by definition, seem to be mutually exclusive. Faith seeks to quell doubt while critical thinking seeks to expose it and stimulate it.

  From what little I understand, Muslims must hold the Quran as a miracle and nothing less: Unquestionable, untouchable, sacred. If that view is such a fundamental part of their faith, critical thinking cannot be applied to it. I'd like to see the flow chart on a Muslim who applied textbook critical thinking to his own beliefs and, subsequently, maintained his faith.

  With Christians in a free country, it's different, but one cannot rationally deny the role of "believing on faith" there either.

  So something you would like to happen is definately NOT POSSIBLE because you have surpressed that desire.

  Let me clarify, I'm not talking about suppressing the desire, I'm talking about identifying and suppressing the bias & prejudice that might cause me to be slightly less critical of A1 than A2 & A3 instead of equally critical across the board.

  Second, when I say "especially skeptical of something I desire" what I mean is if I recognize that I'm holding a belief as sacred, that should be a red flag: stop protecting and start tearing down. Is my emotional desire for this thing inhibiting my ability to judge it accurately? Unlock the hard-shell, foam-lined case, take the thing out, unwrap it from it's pillowy covering, and smack it with the very same intellectual hammer that you smack opposing "things." Intellectual integrity means a person must resist showing any special treatment or restraint towards his 'precious'. Consistency. And if you can't break it, hand the hammer to someone else who wields it more skillfully and let them smack it. Third party or peer review. Whatever is left, if anything, might be considered pretty damned solid but it should never be held as sacred or put back in it's protective case. And should you begin to think it's unbreakable, don't forget that someday a greater hammer might be forged... on that can pulverize it. Nothing is sacred. (I just realized you said the same thing, but more succinctly. I apologize, I've had a drink or three.)

  That, to me, is science and critical thinking.

  Of course, this is probably a poor illustration and, being that it's an analogy, it proves nothing whatsoever and shouldn't be taken as anything more than a pontificating moron's rambling perspective.

  One other thing: There are many scientific hypotheses that go through the meat grinder and eventually come out of the other side as accepted theories. There's zero doubt that the scientist who originates the hypothesis wants to be right. But his desire to be right should not prevent him from completing rigorous testing of his hypothesis via scientific method. In fact, he should be just as thorough scrutinizing his hypothesis as he would that of a peer, because he KNOWS that if any small problem exists in it and he doesn't find it, one of his peers WILL. And in the field of science, I doubt that a record of submitting easily-debunked hypotheses looks good on one's resume.
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  THE GLADIATOR

  When it comes to evolution we have no need to ‘believe in’ it. We either do or do not accept it as an important part of the process for all life on earth. Some of the vilest people on earth accept evolution and embrace the idea that the survival of the fittest is a good moral code to adopt.

  Whether or not we accept evolution at a mental level, at a molecular level we are all part of the evolutionary process anyway; whereas, the gift of eternal life is not on offer to those who merely accept the existence of a god of their choice. Faith and action are required. Faith without works is dead according to the zealous Paul.

  To be a believer requires trying to help those who lack faith in their god to gain salvation and living by a set moral code. That is according to the bible which many Christians now dismiss as folklore. Muslims continue to believe the Koran to be inspired and holy.

  It is possible to accept evolution but remain free to hold whatever cherished beliefs we wish to. Some Christians manage this amazing conjuring trick, which impresses me greatly.