quiet one
2timothy 3:1-9 describes the last days (the end)
jehovahs witnesses know their bible.
Even the Bible doesn't say that the world is about to end..
by The Quiet One 42 Replies latest watchtower bible
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The Quiet One
Hi there. I'm aware 2 Timothy 3 described the last days. Paul's last letter was written to encourage Christians in his day and warn them of what was to come shortly.. It was written years before 70 CE, when the jewish system of things ended, so it could have referred to the last few years before the end. The purpose of this thread is to show that the ' end of the system of things' came about within the 'generation' of Jesus' day, just as he clearly stated. Unless you can prove that Paul's words in 2 Timothy 3 could only apply to today? After all, you know that people have possessed the traits spoken of there throughout history, so what does that scripture prove as to the last days being in our period of time, right now? It could have applied to 66-70 ce, if you know anything about the first Jewish revolt? I suggest that you research what happened during it, all of Jesus' words were fulfilled. Thanks for replying. http://bible.cc/matthew/24-7.htm
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soft+gentle
The Quiet One I agree that a fulfillment did happn in 70 CE and Jehovahs witnesses accept this also ... but even after 70 CE end time propheteers were warning of another impending end ... this time Rome's end was imminent. I think this is because one of the major signs of the end are the traits spoken of in 2 Timothy 5 ... so as long as people possess those traits there will be end time prophets and the end will always be imminent during one's lifetime. We can see this in the history of jehovahs witnesses. The end was supposed to come in 1914, 2 tim 3 was one of the signs ... and in fact there was a major upheaval. Then it was supposed to have come with the second world war ... something did end then ... a way of life, a world view ended and it would even seem that mankind was liberated from many self serving people who were responsible for making life perilous. A new era was ushered in but not the new system.
Looks like... as long as mankind possesses those traits (and along with other signs) the world will be about to end and end time prophets will flourish.
this sort of a discussion with some Jehovahs witnesses is quite fruitful - it is not antagonistic but it is stilll dealing with a controversial issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology
best wishes and thanks for raising this subject
Queenie C
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The Quiet One
Soft+gentle- I know where you are coming from now. From your very brief earlier post I got the impression you were a jw! As in, ''here's one scripture which vaguely fits in with todays world, we know our Bible but you clearly don't!'', that kind of a response. And few things get my back up as much as being spoken to in a condascending way.. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and thanks for replying :)
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PSacramento
To many times we take what was typical "apocalyptic" writing of the times and try to infuse it with the meaning WE WANT and the events we see today.
The fact is that what was written was wrtten for the audience of THAT time, not ours.
That it MAY be applicabel to ours is possible, but we must remove the "imagery" of those days and see with eyes of today and try to NOT guess things and always, ALWAYS we must remember the words of Our Lord:
It is not for anyone to know the time of the end, but for Our Father alone.
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soft+gentle
thats okay the quiet one
technically I am a JW and am now taking a new look at them and admitting that they do have truth. This is quite un-nerving for me ... that Jehovahs witnesses are quite solidly based in their theology from an historical perspective and know their bible so well. they also are spot on in interpreting human experience. I have an ambivalent relationship with them - lol
psac, what you are saying is not true as Jesus said that humans could identify the time of the end using the blueprint he provided. they would not know the day or the hour as this only the father knows.
Queenie C
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The Quiet One
Soft+gentle- What truth do jw's have, specifically?
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PSacramento
psac, what you are saying is not true as Jesus said that humans could identify the time of the end using the blueprint he provided. they would not know the day or the hour as this only the father knows.
Actually he warned them NOT to take "signs" out of context.
People tend to confuse Jesus prophecy for the temple, which was a direct warning for his followers since some of them would still be around, with the "end of times".
Mark for example:
1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
The apostles ask Jesus when the temple will fall and Jesus replies:
5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ [a] standing where it [b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ [c]26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
This is typical apocolyptic language and symbolisim, the likes of Daniel and Enoch, and the apostles would have understood the imagert and symbolisim.
Jesus goes on and says:
28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it [d] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert [e] ! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”
Here Jesus warns not only about WHEN the fall of Jerusalem will happen ( within this generation) BUT that even heaven and earth will pass away BUT about THAT, only GOd knows.
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PSacramento
Some may find that reading it THIS way helps to understand that view better:
28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it [d] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert [e] ! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”