When or how did YHWH get pierced?

by Tyre 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    We need to make certain that we do not look at this passage in Zechariah through the eyes of our understanding of the death of Jesus/Yeshua.

    Listen for that voice inside your head that is saying, "if you understand Zechariah in such-and-such a way, then look at the implications that will have on your understanding of the nature of Jesus".

    Look solely at the local, immediate and direct meaning of the passage, ignoring what John wrote later. His was the last "gospel" written, and was the first to make use of this passage from Zechariah.

    Jesus' disciples were faced with the reality that their Leader, instead of leading them as the Messiah to overthrow the Roman overlord had instead been put to death by the Romans. How could they make sense of this? What they did was, as Paul wrote, was to "search the [Hebrew] Scriptures".

    In the process, the Christian writers mangled passages to produce stories and explanations that satisfied their concerns. The Jews complained that they were misusing passages that were intended for Jews living at an earlier time. (This developing animosity, in turn, resulted in the later NT writers inserting anti-Semitic sentiments - "his blood be on us and on our children".)

    Passages such as this one in Zechariah had an immediate and local application, yet were reworked into stories composed of similarly manipulated texts from the Hebrew Scriptures.

    If you do not find those thoughts too challenging and are not frightened to investigate challenging ideas, then I invite you to read a chapter from a book which I have uploaded to:

    http://www.jwstudies.com/Spong__Jesus_for_the_Non-religious.pdf

    Doug

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Or (may you all have peace!)... it was the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, speaking through His Son, the Word... to the prophet, Zechariah... through whom He spoke to Israel, particularly Judah (the Jews):

    "In the eighth month of the second year of Darius, the Word of JaHVeH came to Zechariah the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying, 'JaHVeH has been very angry with your fathers. Therefore say to them, "Thus says JaHVeH of armies: 'Return to Me,'" says JaHVeH of armies, 'and I will return to you,' says JaHVeH of armies."'"

    That is what occurred with prophets during those times; their purpose, I mean: prophesying. Often. And during the time of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... spoke to Israel... and particularly Judah (the Jews) through His prophets. Those prophets were spoken to... through His Word, the HOLY One of Israel JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

    Note, I did not post this to contend; nor it is religious (I am not religious, neither is my Lord). I only did so because it is the truth, for those who want the truth. If one doesn't want it, or doesn't believe this is the truth... no worries... that's entirely okay, too. But I would be indebted to those who do if I didn't share it.

    BTW, dear DougM (peace to you!), "John" didn't write the gospel attributed to him. It was written by Lazarus, also known as Simon the Leper/Kanean/Zealot.

    Peace to you all!

    A slave of Christ, the Word of God,

    SA

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The writer of the GOJ saw in Zech's words a "prophecy" come true in what Happend to Christ.

    Christ was indeed God's "suffering servant" and he was indeed Pierced for our transgressions and was indeed "looked upon".

    And God was indeed there with Him, suffering WITH Him and was indeed PIERCED WITH HIM.

    And that is what the Writer of John saw in those verses.

    And that is what so many others saw and continue to see as well.

    And Doug is quite correct when he sys this:

    Jesus' disciples were faced with the reality that their Leader, instead of leading them as the Messiah to overthrow the Roman overlord had instead been put to death by the Romans. How could they make sense of this? What they did was, as Paul wrote, was to "search the [Hebrew] Scriptures".

    Even more so when Jesus, alive and well, came "crashing back" into their lives.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Indeed, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!). Perhaps a corresponding prophesy by Isaiah will help shed a little more light:

    "See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him — his Appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness — so he will startle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

    "Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of JaHVeH been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

    "Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by Him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and JaHVeH has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

    "Yet it was JaHVeH's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of JaHVeH will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of lifeand be satisfied; by his knowledgemy righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong,because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

    The Hebrew word "pierced", here is "chalal" which means "pierced, bored through, wounded (fatally)," etc. This isn't a reference solely to his being killed by being pierced (which is what ultimately killed him), but also to his being impaled on the tree... because the word also means "to profane, make common, defile, pollute, violate the honour of, dishonour, treat as common." The Hebrew word for "crushed" is "daka"... from the root "dakah"... which means "to crush, be crushed, be contrite, be broken", but not necessarily physically - it also means to be humbled, even shamed. The Hebrew word for "bruised" is "chabbuwrah"... which means "bruise, stripe, wound, blow."

    Zechariah wasn't alone in his prophesy of what would occur with my Lord in this respect.

    I hope this helps and peace to you all!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Totally agree Shel ( love to you as always my dear sister).

    I think that the apostles just started making "connections" as they started reading the scriptures with the HS guiding them.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    If you were prepared to read that challenging chapter that I presented in my previous post on this Thread, then you would appreciate the challenges presented in this subsequent chapter.

    If however you are not prepared to have your beliefs challenged, do not read this.

    http://www.jwstudies.com/Spong_resurrection_ascension.pdf

    Doug

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Doug Mason,

    Amen. I told a Jewish friend tonight that when I was part of a an advanced Jesus seminar that required completion of the New Testament course, the class was composed mostly of Christian young women. Most of us had decent Biblical literacy growing up. She spoke of Jung and then asked us to write three adjectives to describe Jesus based on our recent course. We had to reveal our answers. Despite not believing in JW anymore, I could only think of WT concepts within the short time frame. It was illuminating. We had four Orthdox Jewish male students, taking the course for extra medical school credibility. Every single Christian wrote something not true in the text of the NT. All the Jewish men had correct answers.

    Maybe this verse prophecies about Jesus. When it was written, the author was addressing his current concerns. Over time, so many famous scriptures, such as Psalm 23, were very different to the Jews, including Jesus and the apostles. I telephoned the religion department so many times asking for a Jewish interpretation, that I was referred to Encyclopedia Judaica. I never heard of it before this conversation. Most public libraries have a set of volumes. It was utterly fascinating. I skimmed through "son of man," "son of God," and other key Christian concepts. I do not have the background to know the correct answer if such a thing exists. My belief is that we learn too much secular Jesus, Cecil B. DeMille Jesus that we are too confused to address the actual text. Some people might find this stuff very boring but from my background in JW, it is amazing.

    I had no idea such resources existed. Most people have no idea.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    There are some facinating books out there on the subject.

    Most books will cire in further reading, I myself have about 5 books just on the historical Jesus alone.

    One thing I have realized from all those books and from the last couple of years going fro my degree in Theology:

    Everyone has an opinion and every backs their opinion with "facts".

    I know that as a seeker I was overwhelmed at times with so much "opinion", but then I saw that there was truly "nothing new under the sun" and that there was truly only a coupel of views and they they were, basically, be "rehashed" in different ways base don different approaches.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    I actually read both links, dear DougM (peace to you!). The difference between your position (and perhaps others') and mine... is that you are looking to "John". I did not, at all. In none of my responses do you even see a reference to the gospel of "John" (which was written by Lazarus, BTW). I was directed to Isaiah... which I notice you did not comment on at all. Nor did the writings you linked to. Nor did any other commenters.

    I was directed there by the One of whom Zechariah was speaking: the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). I do not say that to show my "authority." I state it only because it is the truth. You direct me to the writing of yet another man. Who's to day HE is correct, any more than others? As dear PSacto (peace to you, dear one!) stated... there are many opinions. So, how can one truly KNOW?

    For me, it is by putting my trust in the One who speaks from the heavens... and not in earthling man. So, while I appreciate your position and that of the author you linked, I don't have that same position, sorry. I am not a reknowned author, of course, so you don't have to believe me or even accept my position... or that I learned of it in the manner and from the Person I say I did. Your are entirely free to reject that. Just as I am entirely free to reject your position. Yes?

    Again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Even within academic scholarship, often performed by nonbelievers, things change. When I was in college decades ago, I wrote my masterpiece on the "historical Jesus." I had no clue what it meant. Jesus was not Paul whom I deplored and I like history. Many books and articles later I was amazed. Every text said a document called "Q," which no longer existed physically and was sort of a construct, was the source for the Synoptic Gospels. I did not understand it all. If I recall correctly, they were fairly certain Q had no Passion of Christ. Later Christians were obsessed with the Passion and Resurrection. Q was more a collection of Jesus sayings. A few scholars were not so certain about Q.

    Skimming material recently, I found that Q is viewed very differently. Academics knews there were certain tensions within Christianity only b/c of inferences in Paul's letters. During an Arab/Israeli war, gunrunners tried to hide arms in a cave. They stumbled upon the Gnostics scripture manuscripts. These radically different gospels that still follow many sayings and story lines with which we are familiar transformed the field. It seems as though more and more ancient scriptures are being found as time passes. I would think the opposite. More Gnostic gospels and writings are being found. Wasn't the Gospel of Judas a recent find?

    I endeavor to say that I read that x states rather than x is true. How many good and bad food rotations have Americans endured? The public health warnings keep contradicting each other. Scholarship is similar. I don't always succeed but I try to be civil. There may be some scroll that will be unearthed tomorrow that overturns all we believe about NT scholarship. I also think that NT scholarship is linked to trends in archaeology, science, linguistics, and other related fields.

    Scholars who embrace certain facts disagree about interpretation. Also, there is a certain sexiness factor. Some people are hot and then fade quickly. It is art, not science.

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