What about the babies born on the day that he brought the flood in Noah's day? Wasn't there a mass-murdering of innocent happening on that day - even though far fewer than 216,000 babies were born on that day?
Testing, testing, testing.....Jehovah TESTS?
by Terry 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Anony Mous
Hi Tec:
God alone knows when the best time to act is and knows where humanity will end up.
- Given that we have free will, how do gods know when the best time to act IS (as an absolute) where is the point that 'everything goes downhill from here' beyond the point of no return when you have creatures that in an effort of self-preservation could excercise their free will to better themselves? We may have lived through the worst ecological disasters but everything else seems to be going uphill from the '80's on. Humanity's choices has fixed the ozone layer, produced smarter kids, advanced technology to less wasteful systems (your computer in the '80's would've used as much if not more energy as now but with 1 billion times less capacity), cheaper products have caused less violent crime (your TV or cell phone isn't worth that much anymore) and better education has gotten people out of bad poverty cycles. If you go back even further before the industrial age, life was harsh, disease, war and poverty killed most of the population before they reached 30. Are we worse off now than we were then?
Regarding tests, I thought I would put something out there. Besides letting a teacher know what a student can do, a test ALSO lets the student know what they need to focus on and improve.
- That implies a continuous, active feedback cycle however. Gods don't give feedback. Gods don't tell us we're doing good or where we can improve. Whenever someone implies that the gods have answered their prayers through their holy books, they actually imply that they themselves have found an answer to whatever problem they were facing since many read the same texts and receive different answers. This means that something is going on in your brain and it has been proven by empirical tests (science) that when you take your mind off a problem, your brain continues working on it and you'll be more likely to get an answer after doing something else whichever that is. If I told anyone my grass has answered my prayers and everyone should make offerings to the bags of fertilizer in my garage because I found the solution after mowing my lawn they'd say I'm crazy, however if the grass is substituted for paper and the fertilizer for gods people accept it.
If God was just going to leave everyone alone and let everyone figure it out themselves, then we would have no prophets, no prayers answered, no Holy Spirit, and He would not have sent Christ to us, to show us the way.
That implies that I believe that there were actually infallible prophets, that prayers get answered, the Holy Spirit floats around and Christ was divine. I DO NOT. Thus I believe that religion sent out, created or persuaded those types of people and that a lot of them did believe their own delusions. Nostradamus is also considered a prophet but just like the Bible, his prophecies didn't come true or required a LOT of interpretation to fit certain ideas. And at that point, anything could fit. I could say "tomorrow the sun will no longer shine" and then you open the paper tomorrow and you read "Steve Jobs died" or "The son of York gets restorative hair implants" (Shakespear) or "Lunar eclipse in western hemisphere" or "Oracle takes over Sun Microsystems" and those would all 'fit'.
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Jack C.
This is essentially a cut and paste of an answer I gave on the Yahoo questions forum that may apply to this discussion. The question was asked if God was fully involved in our day to day activities. My belief would probably be considered heretical by most Christians but it's what I honestly believe.
One of the principle concepts of Christian theology is that God is all knowing, all present and perfect. Why do we put God in such a neat little box where we expect and demand these absolutes? Does God not deserve a period of discovery and learning? What if God were not all knowing and perfect as we have come to expect? Perhaps all of creation is involved in a learning process along with God Him/Her self. Perhaps all sentient life can simply be described as eyes, ears and feelings for God, almost like our eyes were literal cameras and our ears microphones? Perhaps this is one of the mechanisms by which God observes, listens, accumilates knowledge and rectifies mistakes, albeit over long periods of time, (kind of like, dare I say it, witnesses ) learning through us as we learn; being involved through our intellect, thinking process and emotions. I sometimes think we as believers expect from our Creator that which is unreasonable and selfish. Maybe we need to give God a break instead of expecting and desiring it all for ourselves. Do we ever have concern for Gods feelings or do we feel that in His/Her perfection that lonelyness and a thirst for something new are not an issue for the Creator? I just can't get it my head around the idea that God has always had knowledge of anything and everything, even before it was created. Imagine existing alone throughout eons with no opportunity to learn or feel anything new because you already knew it. It would be a painfull and unfullfilling existance indeed.
It seems reasonable to me that both God and creation are involved together in an eternal learning curve. We as part of that creation share new knowledge and experience with God; He/She all along applying this knowledge to creation as a whole with perfection as a goal. At present the world and perhaps all of creation is a long way from it's intended goal. The world is definately not a pleasant to live for billions of people. Starvation, war and disease are rampant. It can at times be hell on earth even for the fortunate. Most people wouldn't want live eternally under the present conditions including myself. However if my Creator chooses to allow me eternal life in a better place somewhere in the cosmos after 70 or 80 years in this sometimes hellish place, then the pain and suffering of this education will be a bargain indeed.
As far as God testing us, all of life is a test for us as well as God.
Jack
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tec
Hi Anonymous.
- Given that we have free will, how do gods know when the best time to act IS (as an absolute) where is the point that 'everything goes downhill from here' beyond the point of no return when you have creatures that in an effort of self-preservation could excercise their free will to better themselves?
I don't know how gods know anything. But I believe you must know that I am referring to God, the Father of Christ. Not to be confused with the god of the bible, or the god of the OT, or the god of the JW's, or the god of the catholics, or the protestants, or the baptists, or the mormons, etc, etc.
God, the Father of Christ. Anyone can know Him... but just belonging to or ascribing to any of the bible does not guarentee that you do know Him.
Yes, it matters.
How does God know, when we have free will? Well, you would have to ask Him that ;) However, He does know what is in us. He does see what we don't show others or try to hide. And He has known man and watched every decision that man has made when confronted with good or bad, selfish or merciful, since the beginning of mankind.
That's an insight no one else can claim to have, and a pretty powerful one too.
We may have lived through the worst ecological disasters but everything else seems to be going uphill from the '80's on.
This is not apparent to me. Many people still hurt one another, live for themselves, think they're right and others are wrong if they disagree, go to war, hate their enemies, etc, etc. I don't think much has changed within us at all. Some people, yes.
Humanity's choices has fixed the ozone layer, produced smarter kids, advanced technology to less wasteful systems (your computer in the '80's would've used as much if not more energy as now but with 1 billion times less capacity), cheaper products have caused less violent crime (your TV or cell phone isn't worth that much anymore) and better education has gotten people out of bad poverty cycles. If you go back even further before the industrial age, life was harsh, disease, war and poverty killed most of the population before they reached 30. Are we worse off now than we were then?
The ozone has been repaired? But I still get some pretty bad burns if I'm out in the sun, when I never burned at all as a kid.
Computers - we spend what, billions of dollars on the newest and fastest technology that is constantly replaced while millions upon millions of people starve and go homeless. There is nothing improved about human nature in that. I almost think we're worse in the sense that so many people think we're somehow better now.
Life in first world countries has improved... as well as the lifespan. But we use our wealth and our 'smarts' to continue to get things for ourselves, and entertainment, instead of using all of that to improve the lives of everyone everywhere. (if they so desire the help) The more you have the more responsibility you should have. I am no better than anyone else in this, but I do recognize that.
- That implies a continuous, active feedback cycle however. Gods don't give feedback. Gods don't tell us we're doing good or where we can improve.
Gods might not, but God does.
I will use myself to show what I mean. I was confronted with a choice not too long ago. Help someone (which meant standing up to someone I don't stand up to very well), or put my head down and do nothing. I did the latter - out of fear and cowardice. Before this happened, I had started to think how I would do the right thing. This showed me otherwise. But the remorse was soooo bad. My decision and the remorse/suffering that followed taught me something about myself, and what I personally needed to work on. That's where my comment to Terry came from.
Now whether that was God testing me or not (not sure I believe God tests like that), doesn't matter. I just wanted to show that often a test is for the benefit of the person being tested... not for God, or anyone else supposedly doing the testing.
Whenever someone implies that God has answered their prayers through their holy books, they actually imply that they themselves have found an answer to whatever problem they were facing since many read the same texts and receive different answers.
I don't think I've ever had a prayer answered through a holy book. I might find the answer to a question in there... or have a particular scripture pop into my mind when I asked for an answer. But most of the time, the understanding and answers I have received have not come from the bible, though I might find something later that corroborates it.
Help that I have prayed for and received, on the other hand, after trying on my own and failing everytime, is different sort of prayer.
That implies that I believe that there were actually infallible prophets, that prayers get answered, the Holy Spirit floats around and Christ was divine.
No, actually, it implies that I believe in prophecy (prophets aren't infallible), that prayers get answered, that the Holy Spirit is real, and that Christ is the Son of God.
Thus I believe that religion sent out, created or persuaded those types of people and that a lot of them did believe their own delusions. Nostradamus is also considered a prophet but just like the Bible, his prophecies didn't come true or required a LOT of interpretation to fit certain ideas. And at that point, anything could fit. I could say "tomorrow the sun will no longer shine" and then you open the paper tomorrow and you read "Steve Jobs died" or "The son of York gets restorative hair implants" (Shakespear) or "Lunar eclipse in western hemisphere" or "Oracle takes over Sun Microsystems" and those would all 'fit'.
You are absolutely free to believe whatever you choose. As am I.
Peace,
Tammy
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journey-on
Jack C. Interesting points. I, too, think man is an instrument or tool by which the manifested physical universe of matter can be experienced by the Divine Consciousness. The Free Will aspect allows individuals to make choices as to the how, when, where, and why of an experience, but the essense of that experience is God's. If one aligns his/her Free Will with the Divine Will, then there is a reciprocal experience enjoyed by us.