Which arguments for or against God are convincing to you?

by mankkeli 43 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Awen

  23) I think God's existence is undecideable

  For me it would be choice 23. Allow me to explain.

  Different scientific disciplines have pretty much (though not entirely) been able to disprove most biblical accounts such as the global flood, walls of Jericho, some of the accounts in Jesus' life when after he died for instance graves were thrown open and zombies walked around. Also experiments with faith healing have been debunked (no holy spirit there it seems), the unreliable nature of prophecy, as it usually has such a broad interpretation or apologetics will claim the fulfillment was for a certain time period and not meant to be permanent even though Bible texts seem to indicate otherwise.

  Then you have the nature of faith. In some experiments people people who tried to pray away someone's illness failed or claimed that they had Holy Spirit couldn't get it to work properly so as to prove it's existence. They then come up with the excuse that it's not god's will for the HS to be used this way. One would think proving the existence of god would be in accordance with his will. But they will always have an excuse that makes sense to their own minds and seem nonsense to most everyone else.

  Then of course you have instances where prayer does seem to work or a prophecy does come true. Unexplained or miraculous healings of a person with a terminal illness, premonitions about another person's well-being, intuition etc.

  Yet these instances occur in all people of all faiths and aren't just a product of one particular belief system, although Christian apologetics will quickly point out this is satsn working through the other religion.

  Now speaking for myself alone I have had some unusual experiences that have defied logic and reason and these took place while I was outside of the Christian practice. So it would seem that despite the insistence of those with the "holy spirit", God speaks to all persons no matter their religion.

  It doesn't seem to matter what faith you are, merely that you have faith. Now this can be faith in yourself, in others or in some unseen force outside of yourself that some choose to identify as "God". So be it. If labeling something with a name works for some people then who am I to try to convince them otherwise?
• 

  Star tiger

  Hi,

  Awen, I've had a similar experience with acupunture, energy flowing parallel up my legs, so there is something different going on there, and I'm seeing some odd occurences going on with numerology and star signs, maybe it's just that I'm willing it to happen but we don't know everything, by the way I thing it's great to explore things that are beyond the scope of religion as we are all multi-faceted beings, I read one of your last articles, very interesting!

  Best Regards,

  Star Tiger
• 

  ziddina

  The fact that the moron - er, should that be, 'Moron' ? - and his followers didn't know what an erupting volcano was...

  Exodus 19: 16-19

  Zid the She-Devil - who's been reading about volcanoes since she was 7 years old...
• 

  Anony Mous

  1) Kalam argument -- what begins to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause

  - You have to read the whole argument and try analyzing it's assumptions. It presumes the cause is God therefore God exists. You could say just as well: I presume the cause was a group of deities therefore this group of deities exists. I personally presume the cause was quantum particles and we have proven those exist.

  2) The design or fine tuning argument -- the regularity of the universe suggests the existence of an intelligent creator

  - What do you do with meteor impacts, dark matter, black holes, the big bang or the fact that our star will eventually explode or the fact that our galaxy is currently colliding with another. The Universe is not really fine tuned, it's just moving around and the laws of physics keep certain things in a seemingly 'coordinated' way but there is also a lot of chaos. Humans just love to see patterns even if none is there, look at fractals, pi and other mathematically generated images - nice looking and seemingly coordinated but none of them are the same.

  3) The Ontological argument

  - We can imagine God with certain properties, therefore God must exist? (I'm a bit rusty but I know it's been beaten to death).

  4) Its impossible for "something" to come from "nothing"

  - We have found that this is not the case. Empty space isn't empty. Also, where does God come from then?

  5) The argument from Morality. A moral law giver must exist

  - The bible argues itself against that. Evolution shows that it's better for us to have certain moral standards in order to function better and survive as a society. Even monkeys have morals.

  6) The argument from experience. The proof is in the pudding. Following God has changed a believers life for the better and molded them as a better person. They experienced the holy spirit.

  - And yet so many have fought in religious wars both sides thinking they were better and had the Holy Spirit. It's a slippery slope. The Holy Spirit also seems very selective and has no real-world (provable) effect. If you can prove it, a guy named Randi has a million dollars for you.

  7) The consistency of the bible. The bible is consistent. If you read it, the inherent nature of it suggests its truth.

  Proven to be false.

  8) The predictions of the bible have come true.

  - Give one example of a prediction that is not open for interpretation that has come true.

  9) The predictions in the bible codes have come true

  - Using the word code in itself implies that it is open for interpretation and re-interpretation.

  10) The problem of suffering -- proof God is false

  - It doesn't prove God is true or false. It just proves that there is no LOVING, CARING God. It disproves 99% of the gods societies have made up.

  11) People make up religions all the time, they are all similar, all lack supporting evidence and simply show men like to make things up

  - It fills (filled) a need or a void for some but religion was also holding back scientific progress. Religion can exist imho as long as it doesn't interfere with those that choose not to be part of it and as long as it can change it's doctrine to fit new proof.

  12) The teapot argument: people have no valid reason to make this particular wild claim. Therefore we have to assume, its "false" until we are given actual reasons to make the claim.

  - We need to be given proof, not reasons. Religions have plenty of reasons.

  13)The bible is inconsistent and therefore false

  - Not all of it is false. It's a nice book of history and mythology but you can't base either past or future events on it.

  14) Science has firmly disproven a literal interpretation of the bible, therefore the bible is false

  - Not only science but the bible itself disproves a literal interpretation. Science just supports the claims based on archeology.

  15) Praying has been statistically shown to be useful, therefore God is just up

  - So does homeopathy and placebo treatment. Just talking to someone is (psychologically) proven to be more useful. I don't know how good it is to your psyche to talk to an imaginary person however.

  16) Churches lied and therefore we can see clear evidence its all made up

  - Not only churches but also their holy books and their prophets have lied or concealed evidence. How can we trust them.

  17) There is no free lunch. Our every day experience shows that there is no free lunch. Clearly religion is wishful thinking.

  - Religion makes it so there is no free lunch. Altruism would allow for free lunch. God (as described in the judeo-christian religions) does require extensive groveling to get a breadcrumb of a lunch table.

  18) Why doesn't God heal amputees

  - Or any other miracle. Randi has a million dollars for any proof.

  19) The milk jug; praying to a milk jug is as effective as praying to God given that we really give excuses for non success

  - At least a milk jug is useful and tangible.
• 

  N.drew

  Your question to the OP makes no sense. He cannot control if someone chooses to post a strawman argument.

  EP? HUH? I can control myself posting if he says OK, he won't hit me if I post a strawman.

  But he won't answer, so I won't post, I think I don't want to post. It.

  Thank you for reminding me to take my meds, my imaginary meds.

  Be cool, be smart!
• 

  tec

  My reason isn't in there.

  Christ is the reason I believe in God.

  I follow Christ because I love and trust Him; therefore, I believe everything He said and showed about His Father.

  It is that simple for me.

  Some of those other arguments provide some additional evidence for a belief that I already have. Some other evidence I have are also not listed.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  bohm

  good arguments against (litteral biblegod):

  • There is no convincing evidence for.
  • natural and moral evil is evidence against a loving, all-knowing all-powefull god.
  • the hiddenness of god is evidence against a god who want us to take informed descisions based on the assumption he exist
  • many passages of the bible (flood, creation account,..) is evidence against it being the word of god
  • god (as a hypothesis) fail to explain the things it profess to explain (why can something come from nothing, how was life created, ...) in a meaningfull, non-contradictory way.
  • If i need to accept jesus on the evidence provided, i find it hard to understand why i should not accept claims for other figures like Sai Baba
  • i find it extraordinary hard to take the bible serious when i read it (talking animals, cruelty, funky stuff, magic, bad plot, bad dialogue, bad science, unbelievable stuff)

  good arguments for:

  ...

  • makes for a good funeral.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Anony Mous nailed it for me. Thanks there.

  After dismissing the monotheistic God of the big 3 beliefs, we are left with no proof of any other monotheistic God (Flying Spaghetti Monster or Odin) nor of the cast of deities. History shows they have all been inventions of men. If there is any guiding force(s) out there, they are not what we have imagined and choose to remain anonymous. I will live as if they are not any influence on our lives whatsoever, because they are not. Only the gods of our imaginations are influencing mankind.
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  ShadesofGrey

  I did some serious research into Evolution and Young Earth Creationism. It helped build my faith that God exists. Then I noticed that Jesus was not my mediator. I accepted Him as my mediator and He is with me helping me ever since.

  The idea that we have a life-force (Chi) within us that affects our mental and physical health is real. The idea that there are various ways to manipulate this life-force is real. Siddharta was doing the best he could to heal himself and others, and Buddhism was formed from his teachings.

  This does not change the reality of Jesus Christ. In fact, it reinforces the fact that we are spiritual creatures. The Bible tells us of God's Spirit and of our spirit and that we are all connected. That is also why Buddhism and Star Wars type beliefs in the force persist. That is why the Bible says that we are all members of the body of Christ. It is true.

  I understand unconditional love for the first time in my life. I am filled with joy and peace even in the face of my best friend walking out on me and the possibilities due to two family members being elders. I am truly happy and more patient with my kids, etc. Jesus has shown me that God exists and my life has improved. My God actually washed people's feet! I am happier, more loving to everyone, and much more humble. Why would anyone want to convince me otherwise?

  Wishing health and happiness to all,

  SOG
• 

  PSacramento

  Opinions are awesome, aren't they?