For those still "in" the W.T , a Moral Question.

by wobble 24 Replies latest jw friends

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  wobble

  For those who are still in the JW/WT religion for whatever reason , and to whatever extent, I ask :

  How high would you rate your moral standards ?

  Where do you stand on telling lies, upholding truth, deceiving others etc ?

  Does the end justify the means ?

  Where do you stand on associating with people who do not act in a way you approve ?

  How do you feel about how the world of normal people views you ?

  How do you draw the line on what you will not do at the bidding of the WT ?

  What is personal integrity ?

  Please do not view this topic as an attack on you personally, I am simply trying to get in to the mind and heart of those who stay in a religion they know to be false and a killer.
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  Quarterback

  It's still too early in the morning for all these questions, and I haven't had my coffee yet.
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  breakfast of champions

  One of the thing I have told my wife on more than one occasion is that I think most of the moral principles I was raised in 'the truth' with are good : be faithful to your spouse, provide for your family etc. The main problem I have with 'the Truth' is that it isn't true!

  Here is what I wrestle with and it fits under the question with regards doing the bidding of the WT: Altgough I am not out to actively undermine anyone's "faith" I certainly will do nothing to contribute to it. My field service is entirely social, nonproductive. I do not comment so as to give the impression I could possibly agree with any of this shit. I do not give talks, as it would be impossible to do without lying. What bugs me is, does my mere presence at meetings, service etc. actually encourage others on the fence to stay in. I mean, for many years I would think to myself, "This doesnt make any sense, but Brother AttendedCollege digs it and he's smart so what's wrong with me?"

  The other thing that worries me is blood. Should any of my family members die from that stupidity, I don't think I could go on knowing what I know and just sit quietly.

  It is too early for this!!!!.
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  Doubting Bro

  I'll answer but would like to see your answers as well:

  How high would you rate your moral standards ? I do not see myself as morally superior to others. How do you define morals? Are they based on rules from holy writings, society norms or do you see them as a code which a person decides to live by? I obey the rules of the land, try to treat others the way I wish to be treated, love my family and am loyal to my wife. I'm certainly not perfect but try to "do the right thing". I'm not always successful.

  Where do you stand on telling lies, upholding truth, deceiving others etc ? I try to be honest and recognize there are times when that doesn't happen. Upholding truth? What is truth? Seriously, the 2 things I know to be true are that 1) I'm going to die and 2) I have to pay taxes. Everything else is relative truth.

  Does the end justify the means ? Yes in some cases. Don't kid yourself. Do you think the politicians are looking out for you? Do you think your company gives a damn about you? Everyone is expendable and if you don't look out for yourself, no one else will.

  Where do you stand on associating with people who do not act in a way you approve ? I don't judge how others act as long as they don't hurt their fellow man.

  How do you feel about how the world of normal people views you ? Don't care. I care about how my immediate family views me. I'd like to be known as a great guy, but I've learned that seeking others approval just sucks your soul. Life is too short to be concerned about that.

  How do you draw the line on what you will not do at the bidding of the WT ? I do not give them money and if they forced tithing then I would leave. If blood became an issue for my family, I would leave. Basically, I go to meetings to appease my wife. I make an appearance in service every now and then. Otherwise, I don't do the the bidding of the WT.

  What is personal integrity ? That's a difficult question. What was important at one point is not important now.
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  Quarterback

  OK, now I've had my coffee(s)

  The moring is beautiful...colour of leaves are spectacular. Sorry...back to the question.

  I believe what Breakfast of Champ's said.

  My associations though are selective. I do have friends out of the faith, but they have their family's to keep themselves busy. They still call us, and we call them.

  Our options are open.
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  wobble

  Interesting replies, thanks. It is simply that for me, once I found out the WT/JW religion was a crock of s**t , I could no longer be part of it.

  I knew that, as I walked away from the K.H that night when I decided, that I could lose my wife and all my JW family, but I still could not stay.

  I was lucky, my wife decided to leave with me, and my JW family still talk to me, not religion though !

  For those of you still in, that feeling must not happen,that feeling of disgust, or not as strongly as it was with me, I just felt I could no longer give it support in any way, even my silent presence at a meeting was still support, and it was not for me.

  For those of you still going for family etc. I wish you luck, but how you stomach it I cannot understand. Being next to people who spout nonsense and lies, people who would murder their children for the sake of the blood doctrine, people who judge me as "weak" or whatever is not something I wish to endure.
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  simon17

  What bugs me is, does my mere presence at meetings, service etc. actually encourage others on the fence to stay in. I mean, for many years I would think to myself, "This doesnt make any sense, but Brother AttendedCollege digs it and he's smart so what's wrong with me?"

  Of course it does. That is what the organization is all about. Its about control in order to undermine or eliminate feelings of cognitive dissonance. Thats why people "leaving" is such a jarring thing with such jarring doctrinal practices. If someone leaves, it does not compute with their world-view of absolute truth and how a 'good' person could reject the group-think truth. Either people can accept that rational people will come to various conclusions about thigns like God, the Bible, 1914, and whether or not pant suits are socially acceptable (which completely begins to undermine the comforting group dynamic that is reinforced by ones entire association remaining faithful to the group world-view) OR people can eliminate what is causing that cognitive dissonance. How do they do that? The ostracize and shun those with the different world view. This allows for a rationalization ("this person just wants to live immorally; this person allowed Satan to take over their heart") and the shunning allows for that view to persist uninhibited.

  So, yes, by your bending to show tacit approval of the witnesses means you are, at some level, reinforcing the delicate and persistent need for group members to reafirm that they are correct by seeing everyone they associate doing it.

  Of course, you can say if you chose to fully leave, they will rationalize your leaving away and it may not make any difference anyway (by the mechanisms defined above). Thats fair and what you choose is really up to you.
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  Lazarus

  I will do what is best for me and my beloved ones. For what use is personal integrity if it only brings sadness and calamity?

  It's certainly not easy to live a lie in such a big part of your life. But if the alternative is even worse, I choose the bad.

  @wobble:

  What would you do if your employer would do wrong things, e. g. violate laws or cheat customers? Would you quit even if it means your jobless?

  What if the state you live in would incite a unjustified war. Would you leave the country or stop paying taxes?

  What's your limit in acting morally right?
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  DesirousOfChange

  Thats why people "leaving" is such a jarring thing with such jarring doctrinal practices.

  "High profile" members (for lack of a better description) who leave are really troubling for the WT HQ. This is why there are such nasty labels given to anyone who leaves: apostate; adulterer; homosexual; etc... Of course, no one is supposed to know the confidential reason concerning why someone is DFd or DAd, but, have you noticed that somehow it ALWAYS leaks out. Some elders just cannot wait to drop little hints about the SECRET that they get to know about so-and-so. Many elders just cannot keep mouth shut around their wives. Elders' wives know EVERYTHING. Beyond that, 2nd most common incident I witnessed is elders of one Cong gossipping to elders in another Cong as though it was OK since you are an elder too, and you may have to deal with similar situation someday. In time everyone knows the hush-hush little secret that so-and-so evidently had homosexual tendencies, or .........

  More to your questions, Wobble, I hold to the Bible's standards, not always necessarily as translated by WTS. Each person is accountable personally.

  As the blinders loosened, I no longer felt bad associating with others who held different views or lived their lives differently. They too have personal accountability and free will. No Higher Authority appointed me to be their judge.

  I want others to view me as a person of integrity -- not judgmental, not cauing harm to others, but compassionate and caring. For quite some time now already, we had made the conscious decision to give anonymously to those we saw in need vs. giving to the WWW as they did not seem to really need more of our assets nearly as much as many of our friends who were in unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own. The accounts reports at Cir Assm were probably the most important cause of this decision. An Assm Hall that's been owned for 20/30 years, that is tax free, and that is maintained with free labor and has been paid for years ago, should not need more and more and more money. More contributions from each circuit to the Assm Hall. All leftover funds in circuit forwarded to WTS. Higher per publisher "rental" charges for each subsequent assembly. Always broke broke broke and needing more and more money.

  It's a gradual awakening however.

  DOC
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  wobble

  Hey Lazarus !

  It seems as though you missed my remark about it not being an attack on you guys, so you question my morals.

  I am not holding myself up as superior at all, just different to a degree.

  And I guess that once we wake up to the reality that the WT cannot tell us what is right and wrong,because they don't know the difference between the two, and we have to get our own moral compass , then we decide how we will live, and what we will do and not do.

  There are things I cannot do, its just part of me I suppose, for example, if someone gave me too much change in a shop say, I could not keep it.

  Similarly, I find it impossible to go along with stuff I know to be false, so, if my favourite political party was pushing some downright lies, I would not support them (I know, difficult for me to find someone to vote for !)

  Living a lie is not easy for me. But that is all irrelevant to what I am trying to discover, really I would like to know ,what would it take to get you guys who are in, to walk, despite the (Possible) consequences ?

  How low do the WT have to go ?